Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We (GCHS) get many "adoption" calls. Peggy Fille handles this and does a great job.

Quite a few of the "I need to get rid of this herp" calls we get are red-ear sliders (suprisingly, not many box turtles)

Anyway...I always struggle with what to tell people...and try to avoid them (red ear people)

I made some calls a month or 2 ago and finally spoke to the ODNR enforcemnt person who handles SW Ohio, explained the situation and asked him what I can tell these people...i.e. I can't take them, I can't PLACE them, unless it's with a child, and I can't tell them to release them.

He sympathized with the situation...and really didn't have any suggestions other than to suggest euthanasia. There has to be a better way. Perhaps this supjuect can be re-opened with ODNR.

Maybe Boo (Greg L) can help us here....

Remeber when Chris posted that he saw someone flipping stones looking for water snakes and then killing them?

I asked about that as well...and although they do not encourage it, there is no law against it.

I do not blame the enforcement agents here...they can only enforce the law...but...something should be changed here....

Is there a way to accept them as a rescue and then possibly ship them to an out of state contact? That could possibly be an alternative to euthenasia (sp?). As far as the killing them and the law is concerned, I agree that I would like to see something done about that. However, policing it would be the problem. It would be up to hobbyists to really do most of the policing and if we happen to see someone doing it, get as much evidence as you can and then turn it into ODNR. Worst case scenario, catch them and report them to the park office who might be able to dispatch someone out. Just a thought, and I understand it's a bit far fetched, but it would be better than nothing.

I used to hunt and fish (still fish though) so I can possibly see there being some opposition if you ask hunters for support, because the first thing going through their heads would be, "Well, if they want to say we can't kill this, what else are they going to prevent us from hunting". However, I think that if there is really no good reason to hunt them (not using for food or anything of that sort) then they should not be permitted to be killed.

JMO,

Chris

>>Remeber when Chris posted that he saw someone flipping stones looking for water snakes and then killing them?
>>
>>I asked about that as well...and although they do not encourage it, there is no law against it.
>>
>>I do not blame the enforcement agents here...they can only enforce the law...but...something should be changed here....
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

They can't legally be shipped out. The only native animals that can be shipped out are those that have been captive bred.

>>They can't legally be shipped out. The only native animals that can be shipped out are those that have been captive bred.
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

>>We (GCHS) get many "adoption" calls. Peggy Fille handles this and does a great job.
>>
>>Quite a few of the "I need to get rid of this herp" calls we get are red-ear sliders (suprisingly, not many box turtles)
>>
>>Anyway...I always struggle with what to tell people...and try to avoid them (red ear people)
>>
>>I made some calls a month or 2 ago and finally spoke to the ODNR enforcemnt person who handles SW Ohio, explained the situation and asked him what I can tell these people...i.e. I can't take them, I can't PLACE them, unless it's with a child, and I can't tell them to release them.
>>
>>He sympathized with the situation...and really didn't have any suggestions other than to suggest euthanasia. There has to be a better way. Perhaps this supjuect can be re-opened with ODNR.
>>
>>Maybe Boo (Greg L) can help us here....
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

Dean,

Are there any locations on private property that you could send the RES to? Sometimes people with artificially constructed fish ponds enjoy several RES in them as well. I know that fish injury and escapes are two main issues to worry about in this option, but perhaps a few turtles could find the right conditions and avoid euthanasia.

Along with private citizens, perhaps there are properties with water gardens that could accomodate a colony of RES. I have seen several indoor facilities with water setups that would look nice with turtles in them. Along with adoption comes proper nutrition and lighting, so there isn't really an easy answer to go with on this issue.

Good luck.

Neil

Even on private property, these animals would still need to be registered. Even if someone had a small local pond that already had a colony, it would still be rather irresponsible to just toss them inthe wild after being captive for so long.

Like you said...no easy answer for this one..

Chris

>>Dean,
>>
>>Are there any locations on private property that you could send the RES to? Sometimes people with artificially constructed fish ponds enjoy several RES in them as well. I know that fish injury and escapes are two main issues to worry about in this option, but perhaps a few turtles could find the right conditions and avoid euthanasia.
>>
>>Along with private citizens, perhaps there are properties with water gardens that could accomodate a colony of RES. I have seen several indoor facilities with water setups that would look nice with turtles in them. Along with adoption comes proper nutrition and lighting, so there isn't really an easy answer to go with on this issue.
>>
>>Good luck.
>>
>>Neil
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

Registering the turtles with a fee plus a PIT tag will definitely put a stop to most folks wanting to adopt them. Politics can hinder fixable situations as we all know.

Rather than jumping through legal hoops and fees, people will just release them into the wild, and contribute to already occurring problems. This legal bind that exists ties the hands of people who want to help. Still, perhaps the situations I discussed in my last post could exist out of OH, where laws are different.

"The more corrupt a society, the more numerous are its laws."
-Edward Abbey

Neil

Very nice...more people should read his works.
~Mike

Unfortunately, Abbey is left out of much environmental literature in schools, and all we are taught is the works of Thoreau and Rachael Carson. His account of gopher snake pest control in "Desert Solitaire" left a lasting impession on me.

No wonder this country is going the way it is without his influence!

Neil

Amazing! I actually took an Environmental Literature class in high school and read Desert Solitaire. What a great book! He should definitely be a more prevalent author on school's reading lists. I love the pure defiance he has, too. Have you heard about what his friends did when he died? They apparently buried him illegally at some national park that he loved, and didn't tell anyone the location...just as he requested. Defiant to the end. haha
~Mike

Reptile regulations in Ohio are not there to protect the populations of Ohio reptiles. The number 1 cause of reducing populations in almost al species is habitat destruction! However Ohio did not toughen up on laws restricting wetland development or other losses of habitat destruction they instead chose to regulate the reptile trade.

The problem is that the only people who actually follow the law are the people who keep either a few individuals as pets, or keep small breeding groups of these animals for breeding, thus lessening the strain on wild populations. Those who illegally collect reptiles to sell out of state do not get permits because it would still be illegal and they are trying to fly under the radar.

Additionally rescues have to sit by with their hands now when dealing with "native" reptiles (red-ears are most likely introduced). I think it would be most appropriate for Ohio to allow keeping of natives with a FREE permit. It could still allow for inspections but would only reduce the cost of keeping natives to $10 for PIT tagging. instead of the $10 plus $25 a year.

Red Eared Sliders aren't "Most likely" introduced....they ARE introduced which pretty much makes the law pertaining to them that much more engnoramous!

Chris

>>Reptile regulations in Ohio are not there to protect the populations of Ohio reptiles. The number 1 cause of reducing populations in almost al species is habitat destruction! However Ohio did not toughen up on laws restricting wetland development or other losses of habitat destruction they instead chose to regulate the reptile trade.
>>
>>The problem is that the only people who actually follow the law are the people who keep either a few individuals as pets, or keep small breeding groups of these animals for breeding, thus lessening the strain on wild populations. Those who illegally collect reptiles to sell out of state do not get permits because it would still be illegal and they are trying to fly under the radar.
>>
>>Additionally rescues have to sit by with their hands now when dealing with "native" reptiles (red-ears are most likely introduced). I think it would be most appropriate for Ohio to allow keeping of natives with a FREE permit. It could still allow for inspections but would only reduce the cost of keeping natives to $10 for PIT tagging. instead of the $10 plus $25 a year.
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

I agree that they are introduced, just leaving room for those that believe that the populations they are either localized natural populations or a reintroduced population after a historical local extinction.

Not to throw a wrench into the workings, but Trachemys scripta elegans is actually native to southern portions of Ohio along the Ohio River. Populations elsewhere in the state are likely introduced, but there are native populations of T. s. elegans in Ohio.
~Mike

While I would like to say that I agree with you, most of the documentation that I can find states that these turtles are native to southern US, and more specifically, the SE USA. Not trying to start an arguement, but I can really can't find any information that states otherwise.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>Not to throw a wrench into the workings, but Trachemys scripta elegans is actually native to southern portions of Ohio along the Ohio River. Populations elsewhere in the state are likely introduced, but there are native populations of T. s. elegans in Ohio.
>>~Mike
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League

Chris-
Unfortunately its not really a matter of opinion. T. s. elegans is native to southern Ohio. Whiles certainly have their stronghold in the southeastern United States, that is not the extent of their range. One thing to note is that the redear slider (Trachemys s. elegans) is actually more the more northern subspecies of slider (the nominate, Trachemys s. scripta, is much more southern in range). Also, just across the river in northern Kentucky, T. s. elegans is a relatively common species. Rivers don't usually provide effective barriers to riparian turtles...You probably got most of your information from field guides, but you'll need to research subjects deeper than just field guides to get a more accurate portrayal of most things. If you'd like to look into it further, I'd suggest looking at "Turtles of the United States and Canada," by Ernst, Lovich, and Barbour. In there it states "T. scripta ranges naturally from southeastern Virginia, southwestward to northern Florida, north to Kentucky and Tennessee to southern Ohio..." I hope that clears things up.
~Mike

I will see if I can find that book, it sounds like it would be an interesting one to have in my small "library" of reptile materials.

Thanks,

Chris

>>Chris-
>> Unfortunately its not really a matter of opinion. T. s. elegans is native to southern Ohio. Whiles certainly have their stronghold in the southeastern United States, that is not the extent of their range. One thing to note is that the redear slider (Trachemys s. elegans) is actually more the more northern subspecies of slider (the nominate, Trachemys s. scripta, is much more southern in range). Also, just across the river in northern Kentucky, T. s. elegans is a relatively common species. Rivers don't usually provide effective barriers to riparian turtles...You probably got most of your information from field guides, but you'll need to research subjects deeper than just field guides to get a more accurate portrayal of most things. If you'd like to look into it further, I'd suggest looking at "Turtles of the United States and Canada," by Ernst, Lovich, and Barbour. In there it states "T. scripta ranges naturally from southeastern Virginia, southwestward to northern Florida, north to Kentucky and Tennessee to southern Ohio..." I hope that clears things up.
>>~Mike
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

As I said earlier, you often need to explore deeper than what field guides present you with. "Turtles of the United States and Canada" and "Salamanders of the United States and Canada" by Petranka are both amazing resources in that they compile scientific data into one species entry, along with the citations for the data so that, should you choose to, you have the information to go back and review their sources. Good luck.
~Mike