Reptile & Amphibian Forums

dropped about 35k in the past few months, man id be mad if the expensive snake i just bought lost most its value.
now why are albinos still the same price?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Albinos have been around for quite some time and their prices are considerably more stable. Also, albinos are also simple recessive.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Middle to end of 04 the price of mojaves was around $8-12K then they found out that it produced a white snake - prices jumped to $40K a few people bought in - but within a couple of months breeders realized that they weren't selling thier mojos at that price so they went back to thier normal pricing and thusly went about the average decline. Its not like they have all along been priced at $40k and all of a sudden dropped to $5K.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

That was what??? 2001? So in reality they haven't dropped that much.

And If someone actually paid $40k for one I bet they wont admit it... lol.

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

(this has been edited, as my orig post was deleted! too much bad language i presume!)

does it not occur to anyone why no-one that actually owns a mojave isn't crying about price drop????? (you're not annoyed because you dont own one)

Really do you think that any animal will hold its value?

People must be getting sick of saying it, as i'm sick of reading it....

Co-dom/dom snakes will always come down in price quicker than recessive snakes, why? because they can be produced easier!! simple!!(which answers your albino question too!)

Ask any breeder, I mean a real professional breeder, not a make shift cowboy with a breeding facility (basement!) how long do you think it`ll take them to see a real profit? ? If thats your game?
False illusion is that the more animals you produce, the more money you make? right? well no, because every single one of them has to be fed, cleaned and heated etc which costs money. In an ideal world they would make $1000's but you have the "cowboys" out there producing co dom/dom morphs and realise that there ARE NOT 1000's of people with that kind of money to spend on a snake, it begins to occur to them for the 1st time, that they may have to actually feed and care for the snake(s) for some time before they may get a sale, but no, they reduce the price and reduce it until they are willing to p/exchange the animal or even straight swap it, then the buyers try to pit breeders against breeders to see if they can get a better price from the real breeders, do you really think NERD, VPI, Ralph etc care about who is selling a mojave for half their asking price? C'mon!!

I am only beginning on my breeding quest with balls, I am under no false illusion, I will never be a "BIG BOY" in this game. The whole "market" will last longer if the people soley interested in money just sell there stock and move on (cant say what i really want to say!)

To the person who originally posted, this is not aimed at you, its more of a general moan at people who post very similar question continually. Why is the question never "whats up with the price of snows?" or dreamsicles etc?

My rant is over, Good Night

Phil

"Ask any breeder, I mean a real professional breeder, not a make shift cowboy with a breeding facility (basement!) how long do you think it`ll take them to see a real profit?"

Actually a good handfull of breeders made and are still making a ton of money fast. I woundered this at first too, but was really suprised when I figured out that there are alot of people cashing in on their 2 year investments in a pastel and mojave.

"False illusion is that the more animals you produce, the more money you make? right? well no, because every single one of them has to be fed, cleaned and heated etc which costs money."

Like feeding a snake for a year can even come close to taking off the profit of any morph on the market. Lets say you fed a pastel male for a year and sold it now for $500, you are in it for what?... $30. Get real.

"In an ideal world they would make $1000's but you have the "cowboys" out there producing co dom/dom morphs and realise that there ARE NOT 1000's of people with that kind of money to spend on a snake,"

Wrong, there are 1000's out there willing to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on morphs. Every year people get a tax check (at least I do), and get to pick something to invest it in... last year I again picked ball pythons. Just ONE example where normal people are presented with the opertunity to spend 1000's on a snake.

"it begins to occur to them for the 1st time, that they may have to actually feed and care for the snake(s) for some time before they may get a sale, but no, they reduce the price and reduce it until they are willing to p/exchange the animal or even straight swap it,"

Hmmm, sounds like a real market to me. Is this not how EVERY market in the world works? If you have 200 boxes of apples, and you need to sell them to buy oranges, and really they apples grow every year and next year you will have atleast that many apples, wouldnt it be wise to trade 200 boxes of apples for 100 boxes of oranges?? Well thats up to you, but I would say yes. If are foolish enough to listen to one breeders rantings on their website about this very issue, perhaps you should look at the fact that last year pastel male hatchlings where worth $2000, the year before $5000... this year $500. Ok, so some argue that a 1 year old pastel is worth alot more... hmmm well I just saw several ads in the classifieds for year old male pastels ready to breed for well under $2k. This is the same with almost all morphs (yah even hypos it will happen; even though its not so right now). So what about that other morph that you could have bought with the money if you had sold it a year before for alot less... well looks like you are going to have to settle for a current baby and your new project starts from when you sell that offspring... so TIME matters more than making the premium dollar to a small breeder. The big breeders have more to gain by sitting on the offspring and telling everyone not to drop prices, because what you dont realise is while they have leftovers each year, they have 10 left out of the 200 they sold for a premium price, so sure they will say they dont care. Thats the diff between a big breeder and a small one.

"then the buyers try to pit breeders against breeders to see if they can get a better price from the real breeders,"

Are you saying you dont price show? How about price match? Most major retail stores will price match because they know that it is more important to make the sale even at a lesser profit. That customer will be likely to come back to them the next time they want something. I am not saying this should be offered, but if XYZ Big Guy sells Pastel male for $1500 and ABC Little Guy sells Pastel Male for $700. I might call XYZ and say, hey how come ABC sells it for $700 and you sell it for $1500, whats the big diff, and can you give it to me for $700? If they say no, well its a huge diff in price and depending on the morph, I will buy from ABC, and XYZ lost a sale. Had XYZ given me a good reason (such as dont buy a het from someone you dont know) and offered it for $1000 with free shipping I would buy from them. Its all about how they approach it. I cant tell you how many XYZs I called when I was looking to drop a few grand, and asked questions and they gave me a snotty attitude... they lost my sale. BAD XYZ. Thats when you see the real pros. I ended up buying from a BIG breeder who came way down on price and even sent me a free shirt. So yes, dispites what some ranting breeders say the real big pros WILL come down on price and do it in style... and of course I will buy from them again.

"do you really think NERD, VPI, Ralph etc care about who is selling a mojave for half their asking price"

They should. If they dont check the market prices every once and a while they might find them selves priced right out of the market. Most of their websites have very outdated prices, and if you call they have better prices.

"I am only beginning on my breeding quest with balls, I am under no false illusion, I will never be a "BIG BOY" in this game. The whole "market" will last longer if the people soley interested in money just sell there stock and move on (cant say what i really want to say!)"

Well in 2 years when you finally produce something worth selling, we will see if you are willing to wait another year to sell it, while the price cuts in half every 6 months. I wont. I buy everything very stratigically, and utilize breeding loans so I dont have to put all my money into it. I sell CB normals at shows for $15, while others have imports sit around at $45 all day long. Would I sell a pied for $2000 right now while the market is more like $4-5k? If there was something I wanted to buy, you bet I would! Because in a year they may be $2k anyhow. I am willing to take that risk, mostly because I will have more next year.

Thats MY point of view. It my be a bit scewed, but its all I got.

Ben

Lets try this again, I'll do the whole quoting thing, I kinda like that, makes it look intelligent huh?

"Actually a good handfull of breeders made and are still making a ton of money fast. I woundered this at first too, but was really suprised when I figured out that there are alot of people cashing in on their 2 year investments in a pastel and mojave."

THINK about this, NO........ Stop........Think. why can these people "CASH IN" their investments? Because the big guys are crossing and line breeding these morphs doing all sorts that makes them increasingly popular, making more people wanna buy them, and more "WEE BOYS" decreasing their prices , MEANING of course they are gonna sell.

"Like feeding a snake for a year can even come close to taking off the profit of any morph on the market. Lets say you fed a pastel male for a year and sold it now for $500, you are in it for what?... $30. Get real."
Close minded opinion, I am talking about big breeders, with BIG costs, you know I said PROFESSIONALS, not a part timer trying to make a quick buck. You are talking possibly in excess of 1000 hatchlings a year, TIME costs money on this level when it just come to cleaning alone. ALMOST every PROFESSIONAL breeder, produces their own food, correct? Dont know about you but having 1000's of rats/mice to feed and clean and house, you guessed it costs money. On top of every new mouth to feed every year, you have the ones left from last year that haven't sold yet to feed and care for, you catching on yet????

"If are foolish enough to listen to one breeders rantings on their website about this very issue"

Personally i couldn't give a monkey's about what anyone with a website says including the "BIG BOYS" why? coz I respect what they do, I understand why they do what they do, I Dont have to agree with everything they may or may not say, irrelevant to me, just keep the new morphs coming, keep up the hard work and one day hopefully we all can get a chance of owning a piece of someone else work??

"The big breeders have more to gain by sitting on the offspring and telling everyone not to drop prices, because what you dont realise is while they have leftovers each year, they have 10 left out of the 200 they sold for a premium price, so sure they will say they dont care. Thats the diff between a big breeder and a small one"

Again.....THINK.....why are 10 or so kept by?? any ideas?? Because they ARE BIG BOYS and with that title comes a bit of repect and repsosibility, the small guy with the 1/2 price pastels sells out, yeah, what if 1 dies a day or so later? he's just spent the money on new trims!! he cannot refund or replace can he? BIG BOYS CAN AND DO!!

"I cant tell you how many XYZs I called when I was looking to drop a few grand, and asked questions and they gave me a snotty attitude... they lost my sale. BAD XYZ. Thats when you see the real pros. I ended up buying from a BIG breeder who came way down on price and even sent me a free shirt."

What can I say? a free shirt? gotta lie down to that one. (ECHO'0'0'0'0'0'0'0) BIG BOYS dont drop a few grand PERIOD. In My opinion you have bought an animal from a wannabe and a neverbe. You got a snotty attitude because 100's of people call/mail these guys every day with the same story.......tell me i'm wrong! So yeah i forgive them for that, way i see it, you want the animal or not, buy it from whomever you want, dont see the need to try and hassle someone on their prices after all if price was the only importance to you, why you asking the BIGBOYS?????

g'night

"Lets try this again, I'll do the whole quoting thing, I kinda like that, makes it look intelligent huh?"

What ever you say... really I like to refference things to make sure people know just what I reffer to.

"THINK about this, NO........ Stop........Think. why can these people "CASH IN" their investments? Because the big guys are crossing and line breeding these morphs doing all sorts that makes them increasingly popular, making more people wanna buy them, and more "WEE BOYS" decreasing their prices , MEANING of course they are gonna sell."

I dont know how this is really and different than what I said, or think, but yah, they sure do get more popular, but the decrease in price because of too much supply. Demand can not keep up with the supply when it comes to many of these morphs, and thats why the prices go down. If it wasnt so, the prices would go up. Simple economics. It has nothing to do with what it can be crossed with. Crosses will effect the price, but usually not much, it has to be something like being able to produce a lucy, the reason this threed was started is a good example of this very thing.

"Close minded opinion, I am talking about big breeders, with BIG costs, you know I said PROFESSIONALS, not a part timer trying to make a quick buck."
"Dont know about you but having 1000's of rats/mice to feed and clean and house, you guessed it costs money. On top of every new mouth to feed every year, you have the ones left from last year that haven't sold yet to feed and care for"

Well, everything in this business stays the same price, and time cost, just depends on what multiplyer you want to use (number of animals). I do breed all my mice and rats. I know exactly how much time and money it costs, and its nothing compaired to buying them, but still costs time. Mice about 0.02 each and rats about 0.04 each at feeding size in food costs, time, maybe add 0.05 to each, thats counting the time I spend on them, the quanitity I produce and at a $6/hr rate... I make more than that, but you have to figure how much you would pay someone to maintain mice and rats... I have a friend who owns a petshop and thats how much he pays his people. The $30 for a year was more of the price for someone who buys feeders from a pet shop. Still the time and food being such a small factor it wont mater in the end.

"Again.....THINK.....why are 10 or so kept by?? any ideas?? Because they ARE BIG BOYS and with that title comes a bit of repect and repsosibility"

WHY?!?! They breed snakes and make good profits doing it on a large scale. Why should anyone give them respect? Someone who pulls people from burning buildings get respect. People who donate thousands to good causes get respect. Some one who breeds snakes by the thousands and turns a profit hardly gets my respect. And you focused literally on what I said not the concept... if they end up with 10 out of 100, they still turned a good profit and its better for THEIR market to eat those 10 than sell them at a discounted price.

"the small guy with the 1/2 price pastels sells out, yeah, what if 1 dies a day or so later? he's just spent the money on new trims!! he cannot refund or replace can he? BIG BOYS CAN AND DO"

Sometimes, if they are willing. Just like you say I shouldnt call them asking for a better price, if the snake dies in 2 days, why should any breeder replace it? I have seen and heard of many dumb people who go out and spend money on something nice, break it, then try to return/exchange it. Why should the breeder have to pay for their mistake? Well, you might say "only if the snake dies of natural causes or a defect, or health issue"... how are you to tell what killed it? Let not make this so complicated. Thats just IMHO, any small breeder would refund a customer for a bad snake too, not just a big guy.

"What can I say? a free shirt? gotta lie down to that one. (ECHO'0'0'0'0'0'0'0) BIG BOYS dont drop a few grand PERIOD. In My opinion you have bought an animal from a wannabe and a neverbe."

Well he is much bigger than any of the ones you listed, yup bigger, so that narows it to about 2 breeders. The free shirt was just a neat little perk that said, Im not cheap, expect good quality and come back soon. Something the rest of these smaller big guys could learn from.

"You got a snotty attitude because 100's of people call/mail these guys every day with the same story.......tell me i'm wrong! So yeah i forgive them for that"

You do? If you worked for me, in the professional line of work I do and you EVER treated a customer (in a real professionals case, client) they want half of the people you call big guys did, I would fire you on the spot.... and have done it before. NO ONE that calls should be sent away thinking "If only I was in a truck and they where a road cone". If NOTHING else, good customer service would be to say, "Tell you what, I will take your name and number and if I ever get to the point I want to sell at that price, I will give you a call". That leaves the ball in their court, and they go away with out a rude comment.

"way i see it, you want the animal or not, buy it from whomever you want, dont see the need to try and hassle someone on their prices after all if price was the only importance to you, why you asking the BIGBOYS?????"

Well, I dont treat every situation like a car dealership, but when at a car dealership, make a deal. Everyone like people like you (or atleast how you project your self here), just walk up see a price tag, take out your wallet and pay the sticker price. Have you ever been to a reptile show? I have NEVER paid the price marked on an animal... nor do I "expect" to sell for the posted price on my table. If you are going to be breeding and selling, you will need to go to shows to try to sell, and I always love to see the tables of people who wont make a deal... full of animals... and the table of people who will... sometimes full, most of the time not, and they will always sell more than the people who wont make a deal. I have had people pay me $40 for a snake marked $60, walk away happy they made a killer deal, and another person had the same thing for $35. Yah, maybe they are foolish, but they felt good about it and thats good customer service. Thats what keeps companys going for many years to come.

Just a quick add in...
In regards to the "Big" breeders...They should not drop in price drastically to match the small time breeders...they don't have to, their snakes are worth more because of their name if nothing else. That is just how things work! I want a hoodie and I go to Ambercrombie it is going to cost me a good $75, I go to Old Navy and it costs me $15...it is all in the name! When I bought my laptop I was looking at a Sony and an Averatec. Of course my first response was the Sony, but it would cost me almost a grand more to buy it even though it had the same specs as the much cheaper Averatec. To make a long story short...I am cheap and went with the Averatec, which worked out very well! But I could have been screwed. Big names bring you more security usually, even if the products are the same.

Anyways, just my two cents
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*Amy*

The bigger breeders can charge more for a snake only if someone is willing to pay more. Why would someone be willing to pay more? I am sure we have all seen the "FAKE" Hets being offered for sale by fly by night "companies." We all start somewhere, and I started by buying Het pairs. I spent my money with the Sutherlands and Brian Sharp. Why, because I see a proven track record, and doubt they will sell off normals as Hets. A big breeder gets to be a big breeder by selling real Hets, and getting repeat business. So, you see a Het pair of Albinos advertised for $900 from a big breeder, and $700 from someone you have never heard of. You see a pic from the big breeder, of the Albino parent, the $700 Het pair ad has no such pics. Do you really want to invest not only the money, but the potentially wasted time for a $200 "savings?" The core of my collection was purchased by the above mentioned two big guys, but I have added animals from Mile High morphs-Alex Tanner, Jon Levy, Robert from Ohio, Corey Estill, and others. I have been happy with these animals, and antisipate proving out real Hets. I think bottom line, it is a comfort factor, give the little guy a phone call, talk to them, you can learn alot just by a phone call. Find out where they got their original animals, and make some phone calls to them. Get pics! Ask if it is the exact animal you will get, and pay by CC if you can, if something goes wrong, I think you have more of a leg to stand on, or, send a check through the mail, USPS...

I will have to agree with that. The only reason I would pay more for any snake is if it was a het, and I wanted to be sure of what I was buying. If you pay a dollar more for a like snake just because it is from a big breeder, well, you are a fool. Of course with any purchase you would require the same things such as secure payment methods, documentation, and make sure the animal is in a1 condition before purchase. I also would never buy a snake form more than $1k from someone who is not a registered business. If they are going to be selling that expensive of animals and not doing it legally, why would I think for a second the animal they are selling me is what they say it is?!

Now you can not compair big breeder:small breeder with abercrombieldnavy and sony:Averatec. A like comparison here would be buying a pair of levi jeans from sears:ross. You simply can not compair the two products as different here, as they are not. Same with sony:Averatec, it would be more like sony model xyz from bestbuy:classifieds section. No offence here, but what will happen when windows vista comes out and Averatec fails to release new drivers and support for your laptop? You go from ripping on people who try to make a quick buck in a business idea (america thrives on this) to making an uninformed expensive descision. Thats like buying a het for lavendar albino from a known fellon at a reptile swap meet. Not the wisest thing you will do in your life.

yep, really sucks!! I'm still looking forward to hatching a Super even though they'll probably be a dime a dozen!!

My hoodies are made of the same materials, same color, size, and thickness. One says Old Navy, one says Abercrombie. They are brands. I don't believe one is better than the other, some people do. My suggestion was not that snakes are sweaters or computers! It was just an analogy Big names are big names...whether or not you think the name carries better products is a personal opinion.
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*Amy*