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is the caramel albino in the actual non traditional albino family (i know i know look at the name) or is it in the ghost family it has a lighter head, faded looking rich color so it also sounds like a ghost

The Caramel albino is once again a true albino as it is lacking melanin which a ghost has in reduced quantities. The Caramel is a Tyrosinase positive albino versus the normal T- variety most are familiar with. If you ever see a T side by side with a Hypomelanistic ie; ghost, you will never ask again.

I am always wrong on something
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(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
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From RDR's Site: This mutation goes by many names: T (tyrosinase) Albino, Xanthic or Caramel Albino. Red eyes with a yellow/orange body color and lavender/orange patterning characterize this albino trait.

"Regular Albino": They are T-, they lack the gene Tyrosinase, which gives them just the yellow and white coloring.
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

NP
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

Not to nitpick, just to clarify. Tyrosinase is not a gene but an amino acid. Albinism is GENEtic, the T or T- indicates presence or lack of the amino acid tyrosinase. As stated in The Complete Ball Python

>>Not to nitpick, just to clarify. Tyrosinase is not a gene but an amino acid. Albinism is GENEtic, the T or T- indicates presence or lack of the amino acid tyrosinase. As stated in The Complete Ball Python

BZZZT! Ok I'll nitpick. Tyrosinase is NOT an amino acid. *Tyrosine* is an amino acid and is one (but not the only) precursor to the pigment melanin. Tyrosinase is the enzyme that breaks down tyrosine. In a tyrosinase negative animal, tyrosine can not be broken down at all so neither melanin nor any of the precursors that are the intermediate products between tyrosine and melanin are made. In a tyrosinase positive animal, there is tyrosinase, so tyrosine is converted into a melanin intermediate (which is usually a lavender-ish color rather than brown), however there is a different metabolic error that results in the intermediate between tyrosine and melanin not completing its final step and being converted into melanin. So the animal has a lavender melanin precursor but not melanin.

I could get more technical but this is my attempt to explain things intuitively.

A couple T+ animals (not ball pythons of course)!

Ophidiophile Farms

Actually there is controversy on whether the caramel albino is T plus or simply hypomelanistic(lacking melanin). I don't think the animals which they call ghosts(either hypo, or hypo and axathanic, yes there both ghosts, this is what happens when you let people throw names around) are hypomalanistic, rather contain Iridophores which are deposits of purines and are crystaline in nature reflecting varying degrees of light. There are three forms guanine, hypoxanthine, and adenine. One reason is I think that the caramel albino is too dark to be T plus albino, if you think just because it has red pupils it's albino your wrong.

If you think Caramel albinos are dark you are flat wrong. They develop more color as they grow and you obviously have not seen the Upscale reptiles line of Caramels, which are extremely bright and colorful.

Upscale Reptiles??? I just looked at their website I was there for about ten seconds when I noticed they have a corn snake picture posted for a milksnake. Please you have to give me something better then that!!!

Upscale reptiles from Florida as in Janie Malsin and Doug Beard from Flora and Fauna, different than the upscale reptiles you looked at.You seem to be forming a lot of opinions without truly having researched the criteria in question, if you had you would know what Upscale reptiles of which I speak.

thanx for your nitpick. I think that really clears things up for me.(and others) Those two lizards in your photo, T and T-
tegus?????????

if so does that make it a ghost

Can you pick the hypo shed and the albino shed out of the picture below. BTW A&B are older sheds than C&D and have picked up some dust. But you get the picture.

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

ill say a d are albino and b c are hypo

A is albino
B is Het Hypo
C is Hypo and
D is Normal

If the albino shed wasn't so dirty it would look the same as the Hypo - they both shed clear - was my point - does that make the albino a hypo - nope.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

i was gonna say d was normal but u didnt put that in ur ? sooooooooo i was 3/4 right

Albino can be called a hypo....
hypomelanism is the lack of black...does an albino have black?
Yes it is Amelanism but it can technically be called Hypomelanism too....although Hypos can't be called Albinos.
Just like a square can be called a rectangle but a rectangle can't be called a square....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

That albanism is the complete lack of melanin whereas hypo-melanism is the reduction (which would imply that in order to by hypo it has to have some melanin).
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

HYPO melanism means REDUCED melanine.... Which means there is still some there...

A-melanism (aka-albino) means a total lack of melanine.... which means there ain't any left at all...

>>Albino can be called a hypo....
>>hypomelanism is the lack of black...does an albino have black?
>>Yes it is Amelanism but it can technically be called Hypomelanism too....although Hypos can't be called Albinos.
>>Just like a square can be called a rectangle but a rectangle can't be called a square....
>>-----
>>Luke Martin
>> Bronze Serpent Reptiles

Hypomelanism is a PARTIAL reduction in melanin not a complete elimination, thus your Hypothesis is incorrect.

Albino shares every characteristic that the Hypo has....but the hypo does not share them all....as with my rectangle, square analogy...
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

Not true - in order the snake to be a hypo the snakes has to have melanin - albinos do not - therefore an albino cannot be a hypo.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"Not true - in order the snake to be a hypo the snakes has to have melanin - albinos do not - therefore an albino cannot be a hypo"

If an Albino has no melanin, then the melanin is less then that of a normal, no? Therefore it has reduced melanin, which is what a Hypo is. A Hypo can not be Albino though because Hypos still have melanin.

Luke's rectangle/square analogy seems right to me.

I get what he is trying to say - but in order to be a hypo you must have a reduction in the amount of melanin produced - as albinos do not produce melanin - there cannot be a reduction - therefore they cannot be a hypo.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I agree with Tosha on this. The operable words here are "reduced" and "none". If the albino has "none" then it can't be a hypo because hypos have some, it's just reduced. And vise versa. If the hypo has "reduced" he still has some, therefore he can't be an albino. Yes? No?

Quig

"The operable words here are "reduced" and "none"."

So it can not be "reduced" to "nothing"?

"If the albino has "none" then it can't be a hypo because hypos have some, it's just reduced."

I have never heard anything about a Hypo needing to have melanin, I have only read that it needed a reduced amount of it. If an Albino produces none, and a normals does produce some, then the Albino does have a reduction of it.

"And vise versa. If the hypo has "reduced" he still has some, therefore he can't be an albino. Yes? No?"

Now that I agree with. Albino = Hypo, but Hypo does not = Albino. That is where the square/rectangle analogy came from.

If an animal has melanin in any , even the most Minute amount it is not an albino, whether it be from actual no-production of melanin or lacking or improperly working melanospores it is an albino. If a male has a penis no matter how microscopic he is still a male. A Hypo for whatever reason still has melanin so plain and simple it is NOT or ever will be an albino, end of story. It is simple Meldelian genetics unless there is a floating allele we have yet to see, then there is no need to continue discussing it.

Thats mendelian.

You must have misread my post. I never said a Hypo could be an Albino.

I worded that wrong. It should have said something like "I never said that Hypos are Albino."

"I get what he is trying to say - but in order to be a hypo you must have a reduction in the amount of melanin produced - as albinos do not produce melanin - there cannot be a reduction - therefore they cannot be a hypo."

How can that not be a reduction? Normals certainly produce more then no melanin. That would mean that an Albino produces less melanin then a normal. All a Hypo is (from my understanding), is an animal that produces less melanin then a normal does. Since an Albino does not produce any, I'm pretty sure it qualifies for that.

To reduce does not necessarily mean it has to have anything left; it just means it has to have less.

To reduce does not necessarily mean it has to have anything left; it just means it has to have less.

Would you mind translating that for me please?

To have LESS , you still have some therefore a hypo has melinin, just a minimal amount. To have NONE means it doesn't exist. Albinos lack it completely.

Quig

"Would you mind translating that for me please?"

lol, that was worded horribly. My explanations (and sentence structure for that matter) blow.

Anyway, what I was trying to say with that was that when something is reduced it does not have to have anything left. Hopefully that made more sense.

"To have LESS , you still have some therefore a hypo has melinin, just a minimal amount. To have NONE means it doesn't exist. Albinos lack it completely."

Exactly. If an Albino produces none, then it produces less then a normal. Therfore, it has a reduced amount when compared with a normal. It is simply reduced to nothing. And since the defintion of Hypo is having a reduced amount of melanin, that would make Albino fall into that category.

Exactly. If an Albino produces none, then it produces less then a normal. Therefore, it has a reduced amount when compared with a normal. It is simply reduced to nothing. And since the defintion of Hypo is having a reduced amount of melanin, that would make Albino fall into that category

To be Hypo you still need melanin. No matter how far reduced, some melanin still needs to be present. An Albino has no melanin, therefore it [c]cannot[b/] be a Hypo no matter how you choose to use the word reduced.

Quig

Quig

Words can be tricky. When the question of definitions come up, I like to check a dictionary.

albino - an organism exhibiting deficient pigmentation; especially : a human being who is congenitally deficient in pigment and usually has a milky or translucent skin, white or colorless hair, and eyes with pink or blue iris and deep-red pupil.

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

deficient -
1 : lacking in some necessary quality or element
2 : not up to a normal standard or complement
3 : having, relating to, or characterized by a genetic deletion

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

In my opinion, snakes that are hypomelanistic exhibit deficient pigmentation, and snakes that are albino also exhibit deficient pigmentation. Of course, hypomelanistic (less than normal melanin) snakes and amelanistic (lacking melanin) snakes are different.

Geneticists like to give each mutant gene a unique name to avoid this sort of arguement.

Paul Hollander

In my opinion, snakes that are hypomelanistic exhibit deficient pigmentation, and snakes that are albino also exhibit deficient pigmentation. Of course, hypomelanistic (less than normal melanin) snakes and amelanistic (lacking melanin) snakes are different.

I see his point in this, and I see my point in this. So we buttin' heads over nothin'?

Chieu Hoi

Quig

I see his point in this, and I see my point in this. So we buttin' heads over nothin'?

I wasn't trying to insinuate (sp?) that Albinos should be called Hypo or anything, I was just pointing out that according to their definition, they would both be considered Hypo.

I do see your point though, and was not trying to "butt heads". Sorry if I came off that way.

Then every geneticist on the planet must be wrong and you must of course be right.

Then every geneticist on the planet must be wrong and you of course must be right

No, and I took this from a previous post of yours..........

If an animal has melanin in any , even the most Minute amount it is not an albino, whether it be from actual no-production of melanin or lacking or improperly working melanospores it is an albino. If a male has a penis no matter how microscopic he is still a male. A Hypo for whatever reason still has melanin so plain and simple it is NOT or ever will be an albino, end of story.

It's, in your words, exactly what I was trying to say in my words. One IS hypo, and one IS albino. One cannot be the other. Unless of course you cross bred them.

BTW Chieu Hoi means "I surrender" in Vietnamese.

Quig

I don't see how that would make every geneticist on the planet wrong. It's not like I'm saying that Albinos should be called Hypos or anything. I was simply trying to explain what Luke meant in his original post. Although I did do that quite poorly.

Read Paul Hollanders post. That is basically what I was trying to say. He just said it way better then I could have.

Look at it this way a man can either be sterile or have a low sperm count. If he is sterile he would not be referred to as having a low sperm count as he has no sperm count. Same thing - If you do not have any melanin then you are not "hypo" you are albino it's an either or thing it cannot be both.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Tosha, I'm not sure I like this analogy. All of a sudden I feel infertile

Quig

A few years ago, Dave Barker posted that none of the boids had been tested for the absence of tyrosinase. Unless that has changed, we do not even know whether albino ball pythons are tyrosinase negative.

"T-positive" is practically meaningless. In automobile terms, if T-negative albino is the equivalent of saying my car doesn't work because the battery is bad, T-positive albino is the equivalent of saying my car doesn't work because the battery is good. You want to know what doesn't work and is causing the car not to go. It could be a bad ignition switch, plugged gas line, broken carburator, etc., etc.

Paul Hollander

Hey Paul, judging by the rest of the thread. Nobody else saw your answer... However I thank you for posting it. I understand that nobody has ever done any actual chemical tests on whether or not albinos are T(pos) or T(neg) But has there been any testing on other snakes that might be extrapolated in a broad way to include ball pythons?

Mark

>>A few years ago, Dave Barker posted that none of the boids had been tested for the absence of tyrosinase. Unless that has changed, we do not even know whether albino ball pythons are tyrosinase negative.
>>
>>"T-positive" is practically meaningless. In automobile terms, if T-negative albino is the equivalent of saying my car doesn't work because the battery is bad, T-positive albino is the equivalent of saying my car doesn't work because the battery is good. You want to know what doesn't work and is causing the car not to go. It could be a bad ignition switch, plugged gas line, broken carburator, etc., etc.
>>
>>Paul Hollander

>But has there been any testing on other snakes that might be extrapolated in a broad way to include ball pythons?

H.B. (Bern) Bechtel did tyrosinase tests on albinos in several species of colubrids (king, corn, and rat snakes). Some were tyrosinase negative, and some were not. Both can occur in the same species. That is the work that has been extrapolated into the simplistic T positive/T negative split in other snakes, including ball pythons.

I am not aware of any other biochemical work on snake mutants.

Most of what we know about the biochemistry of mutants is derived from work on the lab mouse, fruit fly, and a few other species. The single best place, as far as I know, to check on the lab mouse is

Genetic variants and strains of the laboratory mouse / edited by Mary F. Lyon, Sohaila Rastan, and S.D.M. Brown for the International Committee on Standardized Genetic Nomenclature for Mice.
New York : Oxford University Press, 1996.

Paul Hollander