Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am working on a deal, and although i've gotten the info I needed, I thought this would be fun to throw up here...

Forget about what each looks like, the exact size, who produced it, and what else I could possibly breed it with...

Question is...

Which do you think would be a better investment, down the road, considering all other things somewhat equal?

Male Sharp Strain Sunglow

OR

Female Salmon Jungle

Thanks all! -Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Female Salmon Jungle all the way. Possibilities are endless with her....

Joe

most people already have lots of stuff that have the Kahl gene?

thanks, joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

either one of the two. My preference would be the Jungle Salmon.

Joe

ALL THE WAY...Just my opinion, but I think sharp sunglows will loose popularity alot faster than the salmon jungles, the jungle gene has yet to produce in number the super form, I think the more people work with the jungle gene and refine it, and when more supers are available they will very popular. Its still pretty difficult to find pictures or see Super Jungles, The price of the Sharp strain albinos, will drasticly drop, it seems there are lots of people working with them now. If I had a choice I would go with Salmon Jungle. Good luck choosing though...I know there are lots of Sharp Albino Lovers on this forum...LOL
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www.executivereptiles.com

the price of Sharp albino's is going to drop drasticly? Do you know how many people own Jungles? Way more than the amount that own sharps. Sharp strains are the best investnt t neg albino out there and the only people that will argue that are the one's that are so invested heavy in Kahl stuff. If you put a Sharp albino in front of someone and 2 Kahl albino's and give them the choice of what they rather have, with them knowing what each adults look like when they reach that size 9 out of ten would pic the lone sharp. The 1 that picked the Kahls is the guy or girl that is the heavy invester in that strain. This also is my humble opinion.

Ruben Michel

I just don't think that sharps are all that...again just my opinion, I don't have everything invested in Kahl's, But I just don't see the advantage, exept that the people that work with them, try and hype them up a ton...Granted they are beautiful, but I have seen lots of Kahl Het stripes look just as good. Now don't get pissed, I know you value Sharps VERY much, I have seen your posts. They might be...I just would pick the Salmon Jungle over the Sharp Sunglow. Just my personal Opinion which is what Joe was asking for.
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www.executivereptiles.com

I currently only have kahl albinos, and

I once didn't think much of the sharp stuff...

BUT...

have you ever seen an adult kahl vs an adult sharp?

and you know all the work done with Pastel Albinos...
I mean just look at that Boaphile Pastel Dream Albino, or any of the Burke's Lipstick animals...

Seems like the bigger breeders have that locked down, somewhat..

Imagine what could be done in a similar fashion with sharp stock?
I would think there is much more room left there, which is another factor egging me on to the sharp stuff... lol

DISCLAIMER:
By writing 'sharp stuff' or 'kahl stuff', in no way do I intend any disrespect to either person. Just making for quicker typing...

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Don't get me wrong, Both choices are great, and your right generally most Sharps hold their color into adulthood, And I don't mean to Knock Sharps they are beautiful, I just think, that I keep seeing lots of people showing off their Sharp sunglows, there are even some for sale right now, But where are the Salmon Jungles? If you look in the classifieds, I see more Sharp projects than Jungle Projects...I think they are being hyped up a little bit more than they should, They are VERY nice as adults. If your looking for investment, Within the next few years, I personally would think you could make more money with a salmon Jungle than a Sharp Sunglow, Albino is a recessice gene, and by the time you can produce enough to make the money, there will be something else that is popular, Someone below said that Sharps will hold thier value better, but I think that once the Super Jungle makes a big presence on the scene it will keep the jungle prices higher as well...It seems every year there is something new, if you don't want to wait and want to make money sooner, I would go with a Salmon Jungle, if you feel you can wait a little longer to produce hets or I guess you could speed up the process and buy an adult het female, I don't know..it was just my personal opinion, I know the Sharp Albinos are "HOT" now, so I know I won't be the popular opinion. Good luck in your choice...sounds like you are leaning toward the Sharp Sunglow??? Good luck, Both I think would be cool...
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www.executivereptiles.com

more of my opinions.

I think i've only seen 2 people offering sharp sunglows this year. Part of this IMO is because very few have produced any, the other because those that did produce them will likely hold them back as breeders.

I think i've seen 5 people offering salmon jungles this year. Partly because only about 5 produced them, and because very few were produced. Most people that sold them, actually sold their holdbacks they were going to keep to breed.

I think Sharp Albinos this year sold out much quicker than Jungles did.

I think way more Jungles will be produced over the next few years than anything Sharp will. and by the amount, the numbers, since we're talking about co-dom vs. recessive, I would think the Jungle wouldn't hold it's value as much as the Sharp would.

I think bigger breeders or persons with more money to spend jumped on the jungles because of the 'race' to produce supers.
Yes, it has already been done, but not by the general public. Just one or two originators.

The Sharp Sunglow has been produced by more, and is less desireable overall than the super jungle, but mostly IMHO because of the superjungle race, and because of how many have viewed the sharp gene in the past as maybe not being so strong, one eye'd, etc., etc., etc. (which is the same thing that happened with kahl animals, and look where they are now!?)

So, in the same time that it would take me to make superjungles, if I held back the salmon jungle,
I could probably make tons of hets, DH's and Triple Hets with the Sharp animal, including Salmon Jungle's DH Sharp Sunglow (since I have another Jungle female).

Hmmmmmm

I also like the fact that I don't feel like I have to compete for the superjungle race, and pump up the female and breed her early to get the supers in a reasonable amount of time..

while I could lay back and not rush anything with the sharp stuff, and it should maintain its value still.

Just some more of the things I think of.. lol

Thanks again, joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

that produced Super jungles this season. how many are available for sale?

I also have seen at least 5-6 different breeders that produced Sharp Sunglows this season, and they were produced last season as well. I have also seen alot of sharp sunglows that are still avaliable, and not sold out by any means for sure, heck i know some breeders that didnt even sell out last seasons DH Sharp stock.

I have also seen adult Kahl albinos and sunglows that rival many of the Sharp animals with out much difficulty.

That boa is CRAZY...Super nice, thanks for sharing the pic. I agree, I see more SharpSunglows, and Sharp Projects than I do Nice Jungles for sale, or Jungle Projects. Thats what I was trying to say, it seems like more people are working with Sharp ALbinos, and less with Jungles, But some may see the industry from a different point of view...Who knows..I still say Jungle over Sharp...And I personally think that just like Kalh Albinos have been refined so can the Jungles, I bet in the next few years there is going to be some amazingly beautiful Jungles out there. The Hypo Gene has been refined, Remember the first ones, and even today people who breed a hypo to anything to produce more hypos, those sell for $250-$350, where as the nicer Hypos and Poss. Super Hypos are still $500-$800 ...Just my opinion...LOL
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www.executivereptiles.com

Rich Ihle can get as much as $1600 or more for a salmon/hypo boa!!!
now take that amount of refinement into consideration for a moment...
run-of-the-mill hypos - $200

k grade salmon - $1600

that is an 800% difference!!!!!

Kahl strain stuff is probably a third of the way there.. that's it! Still much more to go...

Sharp stuff hasn't even started!!!

Imagine making a more colorful sharp and/or then a coral and/or then a pastel and/or a mix of all of these, and on and on and on, until the things will illuminate the room from them glowing in their cages!
I think there would be a much more promising future in that case for that reason.

Yes the Jungle's can be refined, but they can also be produced easily like the hypos.. them being codom scares me a bit... look at all the ball morphs! $30k to $5k seemingly overnight!

Thanks again for your post, Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

"I have also seen adult Kahl albinos and sunglows that rival many of the Sharp animals with out much difficulty" When one Sharp sunglows were only made last year and most haven't even developed their full color yet and two the only reason why there are some better looking Kahl albino's or sunglow is because they needed extra genes to make them, them that way? Put your CORAL sunglow next to Ron's first year production normal Sharp sunglow and lats see who's better looking now and as an adult? HMMMMMMMMMM I'm sure you'll argue your Coral and I Ron's but others, i'd like to see what they'd say. Still I don't mean to sound rude Mark if thats how it's coming of thats just my opinion. I think you Coral sunglow is awesome for what it is.

Ruben Michel

My male Coral Sunglow was produced from a very drab Salmon male (pictured first below) het albino bred to a boa sold to me in 2001 as a normal albino female for a mere 800 dollars. The animals that resuilted from the pairing are all corals, but they were still first generation sunglows with just as much color as some of the nicer Sharp Sunglow first generation animals.

I believe that some of the Sharp animals are just like the Kahl strain animals, they have had Corals just pop up in them. Saying that nothign has been added to them is not true either, once you have added the salmon gene, then you are adding color that wasnt just there in the normal Sharp Strain albinos.

Salmon male het albino

Normal Albino female from Jeff Ronne that he has personally verified and affirmed that this female albino has no "Coral" Or "Pastel" blood added to it!

And these are a couple of the kids that were produced.
Group photo

My Male holdback at a year old.

An old pic of his sister sunglow at a year old.

Pics of the female and male together at about 6 months.

Ok, regardless of all the debate of what albinos look better, I still think if your original question of wether to have a salmon jungle or sharp sunglow were to be tru ly fair, then you would have to ask, would I rather have a Sharp Sunglow male, or a Salmon Jungle male, so the breeding issues are the same. to me the clear investmenet choice would be the salmon jungle male in that fair situation.

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

..

what I was saying was that Ron's was a regular hypo/salmon dh sharp didn't have any coral gene to help out it's color such as the coral and I thought your coral was from the proven line of kahl corals. If it wasn't then i'd say they are a lot more closer to being equal if that makes sense. Awesome animals around any how!

Ruben Michel

5 or so people produced.. you are right about the other info..

Yes, many, many kahl varieties rival sharp's, but again, because they've been improved on for so long..
one can still do that with the sharps, and not have to compete with many, many others...

Lipstick's, PastelDreams, StripeLine and many others with work behind are outstanding examples... one could do similar for the sharps, which i'm sure is already in the works...

and I would agree that sharps sunglows were produced last year, and that some, and many dh's are still available.. I think the sunglows may be way out of most people's reach, and the DH's may be priced higher than most want to pay.

and I also bet that if all the jungle breeders tried to sell all their 'iffys' at usual jungle prices, they would be left too..

if I didn't specify, I meant that sharp albinos have sold out on a consistant basis... I actually don't care much for the hypo aspect myself, and would strive to make more colorful and better hypos rather than sunglows. but I won't complain when they come along either

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I surely don't know of that many.

That produced regular Jungles and/or salmon jungles?

Celia Chen
Peter Kahl
Gray Rushin
Mark Miller

and there are probably another 2 or 3 I can't remember, besides the 2 or 3 people from Europe that have produced them and actually posted them on Kingsnake.

Besides the breeders that don't post here, or that don't post at all....

and not in any sense to argue, just since we are on this topic, I only know of these who produced sharp albinos or sunglows.

Rich Ihle - albinos and sunglows
Doug Matuszak - albinos and sunglows
I think Brain Sharp produced a small litter of albinos
I think Nick from Boa Afficionado produced a litter of albinos
Ron Micheloti - albinos/sunglows

no arguments here, just posting a response.. thanks, Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Mike Combs - produced Sunglows and albinos
Rich Ihle - Sunglows and albinos
Ron Michelotti - Sunglows and albinos
Doug Matuszak - Sunglows and albinos
Nick "Boa Aficianado" - Albinos and hets
Ryan at R&R boas - produced DH snows, and DH sunglows
And i dont know for sure but i think Brandon at Summit Reptiles also has sharp stock again this year.
I also saw a post by somone i had never heard of just this last week out of california that had produced sharp sunglows but I didnt catch the name. There were others that produced them too, you just dont see it, because alot of them were kept back for future breedings.

I still love you LoL. Everyone has their own opinion. I liked the Sharps more from the beggining cause of what the adults look like compared to Kahls. I agree There are some awesome adult Kahls cause I own one but they had to ad another gene to get there and it's still pretty rare to have one hold the extreme color the way that most Sharps do from the begining without added genes. Another example is Ron Michelotti's hold back male sunglow from last year is just as coraled up if not more than Kahl true coral sunglows and thats just from adding some hypo in there and in the end I bet the normal Sharp sunglow will have a more vibrant stand out color as an older adult then the Kahl would. Again these are just my opinions. Thanks for listening to me.

Ruben Michel

In regards to the original question... I would go with the sharp sunglow. I mean think about it this way. Joe is right about the pastel breedings... and think of this... if you go with the sharp sunglow you already have the hypo gene. If it's a male get a normal jungle female and a female pastel then you have all the genes together in one breeding group and your f2 generation from that project will produce, theoretically of course, pastel hypo jungle sunglows from the sharp strain albino line.... ummm.... yeah... that's a 20,000 dollar boa for sure. My opinion is that there is much more room in both of those lines and the project I just spoke about woiuld produce some GORGEOUS animals... theoretically.... Anyway, that's my two cents.

and if you guys don't mind could someone please answer my question in the genetics forum please? I have some questions regarding some of the lines.

Thanks,
Robert Wood
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

would probably debut at much more than $20,000.!

Thanks for your comments.

I read your other post and thought it was a bit of a sticky subject... just not 100% clear.

I forget what Jeff believes, and I think Doug Matuzak believes his pastel dream line is dominant, and others pretty much say the same... a breeding involving one will produce a decent number of them in the first generation.

The coral in albinos is a different thing altogether, and I don't know enough on that to speak about it much...

The Pastel Dream is the term given to Jeff Ronne's line of pastel boas and albinos.

Lipstick is the term coined by the Burke's for their line of intensely colored albinos and sunglows.

They selectively bred their animals for color and whatever else they favored, and gave them a name for distinction from others. A true animal from one of these lines would command a much higher price.. there is a guarantee that the animal will be better looking and/or get better looking still.

Hope that helps... -Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Thanks, Joe. That does help a bit. I reread my post and I was a bit vague. I knew that Jeff had selectively bred fo rhis pastels and was wandering if Summits line was the same. If Matuzaks line is co-dom that would mean that there would be a super form possibly and man.. I have to say from the looks of some of his pastels..whoa......If they aren't supers...omg... Throw that together with the sharp strain and man.... Not that the other pastels are "lesser" but a super pastel? (drooling...lol)

I am assuming that the lipsticks if they are selectively bred would be a redder hypo line crossed into the albinos? I mean if there is no pastel blood then it would basically have to be the hypo influence making them "lipsticks"?

and the coral albinos... Can anyone tell me what's up with this morph? When breeding them what percent turns out to actually be corals if there is somewhat of a guidline with these guys. Is it a selectively bred trait or a seperate form of albinism that has a variable the way hypomelanism and some of the other codominate morphs work? ( I know it's not a codominate morph but it is possible that there is a variable recessive form of albinism right?) I also am aware that these popped up from the Kahl line of albinos. A mutated form of a mutated gene?...lol wow...

and the jungles. If I understand right you can't tell if a jungle is a jungle right away? Except in the super form? How long does it take to tell if they are going to be a jungle? And if this is true, wouldn't it make sense to say that since jungles are co-dom that the pastels that it takes awhile to tell are pastels could possibly be co-dominate as well?

All of this with the codominate genes makes me think of one thing....... PLATINUM BALL PYTHONS. I think that some of these codominate genes are starting to mutate pther aspects of genetic make-up and this is why we are seeing alot more colorful boas than we used to. Just a theory. Anyway, if anyone can answer some of my questions i'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Robert Wood
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

pastels, lipsticks, corals and jungles..
(so I remember what to respond to.... lol )

Yes, Jeff made his by selective breeding.. starting with one ugly pair, picking the best, and continuing on and on.

Doug believes his are dominant, I believe, where one can be bred to another and half or more should be pastel.

Burke also selectively bred. I think they may have used other high color and/or pastel lines to increase the color in their animals, I don't think it came from a hypo.

Many people don't like sunglows or anything with hypo trait to it because it tends to take away color, NOT add. When you take away the black and can see the red, it appears that it added color, when in fact, it did nothing more than take away the color that blocked the red.

Again, i'm not sure how the coral works, or how it is inherited. From what i've heard, true colors begin to pick up their color with growth/maturity. I think it starts around a few months and then continues to get more intense..
I think pastel albinos/lipsticks and the such can be seen immediately upon birth.. the corals you can't tell.

I do know that albinism takes away the black, and is a deficiency. It can happen more on one animal than another. It can be totally white, so light that it is see through, darker and spotted, or intensely red. This MAY have been how corals came about... selectively breeding the more colorful animals, and not the weaker, duller appearing white snakes.

Jungles, Jungles, Jungles... the comment about not recognizing jungles from normals in a litter is very common for beginners, or those that do not have and breed Jungles.
If you ask anyone that has and/or breeds them, they will tell you it is about 99.9% a no brainer... very easy.

Hope that helps!
Take care, Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Joe,

About the "true color" statement... There is a genetic defect,(though I'm not sure what the name is as the book isn't in front of me at htis moment..lol) that causes the eurithryphores,xanthaphores, and the other color producing phore...(god theres alot to remeber with htis stuff...lol) tp actually retain and the chemical that produces the color in the skin and build up over time to produce a more colorful animal. That is why I believe there are more co-dom/dom morphs than most people realize. Of course this is an opinion and I/m no scientist.

Hypomelanism attacks the melanophores. The lack of or reduction of the melanin in the animal can directly result in color loss as melanophores directly aid in the production of color and pattern into adulthood, but primarily when the embryo is forming. That is why you need to be carefull what bloodline you use when selecting a hypo animal because some of the lines do result in extreme color loss. With the obvious exceptional animals that pop up in them now and then.

Albinism restricts the produbtion of tyrosin? I think that's the right way to spell it... Since that chemical is needed for the production of melanin that is why the animal drops brown and black.tyrosinas- drops brwon and no melanin means no black.

NOW...lol... If you add a genetic defect that makes the "phores"...lol... overreactive or "hyper" or they "retain" the color and build it up in their skin to appear more colorful to these genes then you have an exceptional animal....

So by selective breeding, you are basically weeding out the forms of the genetic defect that you don't want in the end result....that's all.

I guess my question should have been... how come we don't see more adult animals. I sure wish someone could post pics of some animals from the pastel lines from neonate to adult.

Corals too.

Anyway, I would still defiantely go with the Sharp albino male. :-P

Later and thanks!

rOBERT wOOD
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

n/p

I have a good collection of both sharp and jungle animals. I am in the process of buying a Sharp sunglow male to add to my collection right now. I would have to say that the male sharp sunglwo will be a good investment in its own way, but if you were to ask if I would rather have a sharp sunglow or a Jungle salmon, it would always be the jungle salmon over the sharp anyday. The possibilities with the Jungle trait is just unreal.

Ill tell you what, just give me a sharp jungle sunglow and we can all get along

The fact that you said the prices of sharps will drastically drop shows that you are just throwing opinions out there with nothing to prove your point. Yes the striped line, coral line, pastel line are all amazing, you will not hear me say they aren't. But it has all been done through selective breeding. Something that has not been done with the Sharp strain yet. And I also believe there is more jungles out there than sharps. People who work with the Sharps are not trying to hype them up a ton as you said. What are you talking about? We just love them, just like you love your kahl strain. The reason people like the sharp strain so much is because there isn't as many of them out there and the gain color as they grow. Not loose it like
a normal Kahl. Sharps are a great investment, three years ago they went for about $2000 now they go for about $3000. Does this look like the price is dropping drastically? Anyways, I'm sure people are saying the samething as I am, I just couldn't let someone say such a thing without sharing my opinion.
Michael Burton

I agree, and I keep hearing this comment about sharp breeders hyping up their sales this year...

The only time i've seen anything that comes close to this is with Doug's (BoaBasement) Pastel Dream Sharp Sunglows , and I would think he had every right to be excited about them and talk about them so much!

The sharp albino alone is still something exciting to be able to produce... the sunglows basically just started, and he came out with 3 in one! Hell yeah! I'd be excited too!

We all know, or will now, that Doug hadn't been a crazy morpher in the past, rather, he bred and sold high quality 'normals' and locality animals. So if something like this hits, and is probably your most lucrative endeavor, I would get behind it as much as I can too! I would expect anyone else to do the same!

Took Kahl strain guys about 10+ years to do that... there were pastel albinos, coral albinos and more for YEARS before this finally happened..

The sharps are still fairly new, meaning they haven't been worked on much.. I think he is LEAGUES ahead of some other breeders because of this.

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

From my experience...what I see is that Currently IN the classifieds RIGHT NOW...there is a Sharp Sunglow for sale, along with other Sharp hets and projects, but where are the Salmon Jungles?? I see one or two Jungles but no Salmon Jungles? I know everyone sees things differently, I was just saying what my experience was, and what I see on the market...It is true that ANY morph will go down in price eventually, I might have exagerated when I said the price would take a dump fast...I should have said eventually the price will come down...I am just going by what I see...and I am sure your experiences will differ dramaticly...Maybe its a EastCoast WestCoast thing...LOL I still say Salmon Jungle...LOL Good forum post Joe...Boy you sure do know how to stir the pot...LOL
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www.executivereptiles.com

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I think this forum definatly has some Sharp Lovers in it...LOL, Its so easy to "stir the pot" I have found I really have to be careful what I post cause it might tweek someones buttons, Phrases like:

"Sharps Albinos are just that Albinos...whats the big deal about an albino...there are much more fascinating morphs out there than an albino"....LOL

Those Kind of comments can really get the forums running....LOL

No but seriously, Sharps Sunglows are beautiful, and so are Salmon Jungles, Sounds like you already made your mind up on the Sharp Sunglow, what if the tables where reversed, would it make a difference if the Sharp Sunglow was a Female, and the Salmon Jungle was a male? Wonder if that would change anything...I think its a great debate, as long as everyone respects other peoples opinions, which for the most part they have, Its hard when giving your opinions...LOL One of the best threads I have seen in a while..Thanks
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www.executivereptiles.com

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

the fact that you can breed the salmon jungle with anything, meaning everyones present poss het kahl, het kahl, and kahl albino stock, and come out with something most people can buy/use, since they will likely have kahl stock.

Since most people don't have sharp stuff, then it would be like starting fresh, not like advancing in the morph game.

but then again, if so many more people like the salmon jungle, or believe it is more marketable, wouldn't more people have them, including bigger breeders, making it harder for me to sell any of mine?

and wouldn't less people have the sharp stuff? which means whoever does want it will have to go to those few that have it?

I'm being led to believe the Sharp would be the better investment just by the response i'm getting in favor of the salmon jungle!

Opinions on that?!?!?!?!

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I am looking to get a new morph, a Motley, Jungle or Arabesque (hypothetical). The breeders that have them available all use Kahl Albinos, so the other morph I want is 50% het Kahl. Well I don't want to breed that to my Sharp do I.

Now from the breeder end. I am selling that new morph to the customer, he/she wants it for her Sharp project. I only work with Kahl's so I lost the sale.
If I had been working with both Kahl and Sharp I would have both buyer markets.

No lets say I stick with just Kahls, I produce babies that almost any breeder could use in their projects (Kahl is more common). Later on other breeders finally refine the Sharp to what it can really do (like a High-Contrast or Coral version), I want one, but it is stupid to start a new project when I have everything with Kahl genes.

In the end, there are pros and cons to whatever you choose. I believe as a breeder, and someone who wants to have a market edge in the future, having both strains is well worth it. Even if you only have a pair of het Sharps!

Thats why as evry day goes by that my last Kahl pair doesn't sell I think about keeping them more and more to have both sides but the Sharp morphs are pretty new and most haven't been done yet and then look at where the prices started with Kahls and compare that to what the sharps are going to be and how long they hold and the adults are going to be that much better!! I can go on but bottom line is, you can't go wrong with sharps and I believe thats where the t neg market is heading weather you all like it or not! LOL

Ruben Michel

I agree with you on sharps being an outstanding investment because they are indeed awesome and low in number.

But 9/10 will choose a sharp over a kahl? That is totally subjective. Refined kahl albinos, such as pastel albinos and coral albinos, argueably blow away any sharp albino at this point in time (as adults). It's all in what you are looking for. Want body color and the benefit of many years of refinement? Kahl. Want a high yellow and contrast holding albino without the benifit of refinement? Sharp. I dont think anyone can honestly say who will choose one over the other.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

I think one of the best parts about Sharps is that they haven't been refined.

This leaves room for the new guy to improve on them.

If you want the animal that is going to enter your collection to be the awesome colored Albino, it is probably better to buy say 2 High-Contrast Albinos (Kahl) than it is to buy a Sharp.

I know I have thought about this!

apples to apples albino to albino and after seeing what adults look like. Sure a PASTEL kahl will have more color than a normal sharp but do you really believe a true pastel Sharp adult isn't going to look better than a true Kahl PASTEL adult? If so then...........I don't know. Sharp strains alone, without and extra genes look better than kahls with the same stats. Once again just my opinion. Also Ryan, I can see your argument cause you do have some TOPNOTCH Kahl stuff and for the record I love my Kahl albino het stripe female I just dig sharps more.

Ruben Michel

the unrefined version seems to be superior. Which is a good point. There is quite a future for them (which is exactly why I will be getting into sharps in the near future). Although an apples to apples comparison to me would be comparing an equal dollar value. Compare a 3k Sharp to a 3k Kahl albino (say.. a coral albino). At that point they obviously become comparable and it becomes subjective as to which you want. If one is going to weigh Kahl versus Sharp at this point I think it should be taken into consideration that one has the benefit of refinement while the other doesnt.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Ruben Michel

n/p
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Chris & Alliey
website
E-mail Us

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Now granted I do not have a single morph in my collection, but I would go with the sharp sunglow. It is a male, and could be breed to multiple females to create all sorts of crazy stuff! Hypo het for sharp albino leopards, hypo jungles het for albino, etc.

Also it works with a recessive gene, and I belive jungles are co dom. If you are truly talking investment, recessive tend to hold there value longer. But then again, I would recommend ANY snake for the sole purpose of an investment. There are a TON of better things to invest in than snakes, that is why I just do it for the fun!

Get whichever one you like better, snakes are not the best investment

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

If you have an adult high end morph female, such as a jungle or motley... sharp sunglow is a no brainer.

If you dont... Id go with the salmon jungle.

I got some pictures from Peter Kahl recently of super jungles and they are simply incredible.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

In the next 3 years, I could POTENTIALLY breed the male sharp sunglow to up to 9 females!
again, potentially, meaning, if he does breed next year, and if he breeds 3 females a year.
It is a possibility, although not a great one... BUT

In the next 3 years, I could potentially breed the female salmon jungle with only one male, perhaps two.

Hmmmmmmm

Thanks for your comments -Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Do you have multiple worthy females for him? If so, sharp strain all the way.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

Well, I do have hets, DH's, and those 3 big girls I posted.... still haven't bred them to prove them for color or pattern...
Would be great to get one of those as a DH Sharp Sunglow!

As for the female salmon jungle, I guess we all know it would be a male jungle lined up for her...

Here is one of those females as a baby..

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I have heard many people talk about how one line looks better than the other and all that. Now correct me if I am wrong but didn't both lines start from the same adults. I understand that each breeder bred for different things within those offspring but what makes them so different? I have tried to find pictures of both Kahl and Sharp, both as babies and as adults, so I could compare, but I am coming up short on understanding which pictures are of which original breeders stock. I would really appreciate it if someone could post pictures of Sharp and Kahl albinos as babies and as adults so I could actually see the differences in them.
Thank you very much.

Albinos are a completely different GENOTYPE from the Kahl Strain.

IE: when the two lines are bred together no Albinos result, only DH for both.

The allele for the two mutations do not pair up, they are on different chromosomes.

Kahl Albinos have been selectively bred much more than Sharps, and exceptional Corals and High-Contrast stand out to all Albinos. Tom Burke produces High-Contrast Albinos that rival low grade Sunglows.

Now if you look at a PLAIN Kahl Albino (no selective breeding for color, the bananas) and a Sharp Albino adult, the Sharp has much deeper and more vibrant color.

I do not know of many that can do a comparison photo and give justice to the animals. Perhaps Celia will post a picture of an Adult Sharp next to an Adult Kahl (non Coral or stripeline).

the addition of a recessive muatation in the animal would hold its value better over time. There will not be as quick a supply to the high-demand.

Anyone who has a Jungle probably has a Hypo, and could easily make Hypo Jungles. It takes a lot more to produce a Hypomelanistic Sharp Albino.

The male could also breed sooner than the female, sooner return on investment.

Then there is the other problem with Hypo Jungles (and any Jungle for that matter), you have some babies that you just can't say 100% they are Jungle.

I think both are worth while, and you have it right to go with a female if you get a Hypo Jungle, and a male for the Sharp Sunglow.

can you guess which one I didn't particularly agree with?

It's the one that always leads to threads being pulled here... lol

Sorry I never got a chance to thank you for that card... hope you also enjoyed the Holidays!

Thanks, joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

the Jungle ID part, lol.

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

It would depend on the appearance of the animals. If both were exceptional I would take the male because I ould do more with it and potentially produce multiple litters per year.
Bill Kirby

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I am not thinking about investment when buying a boa , I only buy the snakes I like ! I don't have anery because I don't like and I have never been thinking to snow boas !
The best investment is to work with what you like and what you are looking for in term of colors and pattern . The only rule for that is , when you have been deciding what you want to breed is to take time to buy the best. To make better you have to start with the best !
Concerning the kahl and sharp, I don't like sharp, the burnt orange is killing the red and the sharp sunglows are a reflect of it !
I am only talking about what I like so I would need a jungle het kahl albinos for that guy. He has been breeding a coral albinos and a dbl het sunglow. To make the best just look for the best !
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Link

I never liked Anery boas either, and never cared for snow boas because of it.
This continued for many years until I started to see some of the better anery's of today, some of the pastel anery's, and then I had to have one!
I'll tell you, a beautiful, light anery boa would take my breath away just like the best coral albino or jungle would!

Here's an old pic of one...

maybe one day you will change your mind

Thanks again! -Bci Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

mind just send her over this wasy. That one rules. And yes it did take my breath away...

Joe

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I didn't want your crappy snake to start with. I was just trying to be helpful and take the expense of feeding her off your hands. hehehehe

Joe

Thanks,
I won't change my mind for the moment ! I love colors, aren't they red tails at start ?
We have even started to work with albinos and I still think that I will not work with sharp because of the brown they add that kill the red colors .
I will not post, yet, erythristic's I am working with, just that genetic european pastel line girl that has started to devellope colors . Can't wayt to see a sunglow with my lipstick male .
" alt="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/zenzinia/hypo%20pastel/080805627.jpg">
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/zenzinia/hypo pastel/080805627.jpg

I have seen both sides of the sunglows but at the same time the pix I have of the intense burgandy and red Sharp sunglows are usually the breeders keepers and never really posted but trust me there are some SUPER intense red and burgandy Sharp sunglows out there already that would blow you away. Truly breath taking!
Nice sunglow by the way.

Ruben Michel

I have sunglows and I have seen enough to be able made up my mind! I don't like burnt orange and brown .

I never said you haven't seen enough sunglows. I said you haven't seen enough Sharp sunglows. I'm 100% sure if you'd see the ones I have IN PERSON you'd be a changed man as far as your opinion on sharps go. Yes they throw that awesome burnt orange that you don't like but have you seen a dark burgandy/red one? Probably not. I have and they are stunning.I also think a lot of the euro Sharps look different from the Sharps in the states and that might be it also.

Ruben Michel

I would really love to see what you are talking about.

snakes from US i would SURE go with the salmon jungle. The sharp albino is priced the same as the Kahl in the middle Europe so you wont find costumers in here that will pay SO much for them... we dont have many jungles so you will find MANY MANY costumers for those. IMO the sharp albino is already pastel thats why they look better sometimes. I dont think they will change much when breed to Pastel etc. I also think the price will drop fast because i dont see many people after them. :0) GO with the jungle.
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Gabor Kaminski

Have you been to BOABASEMENT.COM lately???? Think you should check it out. LOL Is it really that hard to find a jungle in Middle Europe? I thought you guys had plenty of breeders around there with jungles? Anyways, I know those are just your opinions and your entitled it but check out the site to see the pastel dream sharps.

Ruben Michel

it depends what you cross them with. I think that Matuszak used a very nice pastel and the results are AWESOME but i think the same would happen when he would use a nice Kahl... Maybe im wrong but thats what i think. :0)
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Gabor Kaminski

the Kahl Patel DreamS(PROVEN RONNE LINE)have been made and look awesome but which one do you think is going to look better when it hits adult hood? Thats my argument.

Ruben Michel

Where did you get that information?

really hard to find. In the last show in Hamm i havnt seen a single one jungle. Many other morphs but no jungles.

Take care. Good post BCI
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Gabor Kaminski

for some reason I though they were easy to find over there. Like Joe said it's good to hear insite from the Euro end of the market. Thanks for the info.

Ruben Michel

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

It litterally took me three years to find a Sharp albino male. They are definately in high demand here.

They are around 1000euro each. Its about 1300$.Accualy i could buy them even cheaper but i didnt. Why? Because i can do the same thing with Kahl trial and there is more people working with Kahl albino so its easier to buy a new morphs to cross with them. I think that people that are after Sharp wants to do something new, something that no one else done, its not only about how they look. Personally i think they should be at the same price. Its only matter of what you cross your boa with. If anybody with Sharp will outcross the line with imperators they will be more and more the same in look as Kahl albino... Time will Tell. :0)
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Gabor Kaminski

I plan on getting both but I would rather go for a ressesive gene first.

In my honest opinion you should stick with the sharp sunglow.Just like diversification in the stock market.I believe you need to cover your bases on all the possible recessive genes first,then you can combine them with any dominant gene you want.I personally love them all,but if the market were gonna drop on anything IMO it will be the jungles.The reason being there is too much controversy over what defines a jungle everyone seems to have their own opinion.I believe the jungles will fall just like the het albino market because of dishonest breeders or people unknowingly misrepresenting their animals.Yes people should purchase from reputable breeders but this doesnt always happen.This is just my .02 cents not trying to fire anyone up LOL!John

Now that you said that, I hadn't thought of the dissonest part, I can see the jungles dropping for that reason, unless its a "Definate" Jungle visual wise, it would be hard to sell, Good call on that one...An albino is an albino, but Some jungles can be hard to prove they really are...Interesting...Now you have me thinking...LOL
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www.executivereptiles.com

They were quite obviously jungles and they were sold with a 100% gaurantee they were jungles and will ,if succesfully bred, produce more jungles. The other 17 animals were not very jungle looking in my opinion due to color, and abberency and other traits taht point towards jungle in my opinion, and so were sold as normals for normal prices! It is highly possible one of the 17 i didnt think were jungles could later prove to be jungle, but if so, they were getting one heck of a deal on it. And the folks that were smart enuff to buy the jungles, well they are extremely happy with the animals they recieved and they have all become amazing jungles from what i can tell.

Jungles might be controversial for those that want them to be or are unfamiliar with them. Once you have a few and have produced them, you will most likely not have a problem picking them out either. I really think the fact that Big breeders like Gray Rushin, Jeff Ronne, Pete Kahl, Brandom Summit, Rich Ihle,and many others are all very excited about the jungle project and are all working to produce them goes along way to say how strong the jungle market is.

Another thing that will also make the market strong, is the variablitly, no two jungles are alike so each time you get one its like a totally new moprh cause its so different from the other jungels you have.

I am sure you know what a jungle is.I didnt mean to discredit anyone.It is just a well known fact that the contoversy is there.Well I guess what I am trying to say is we cant control those irresponsible breeders (like those who ruined the het market).I was talking to a breeder at the show here in KY and his words were that he would probably just sell his possible hets as normals because they move faster and people tend to believe if they are poss.hets then the breeder is marking them up because they are poss.het for something,when they came there looking for a normal animal for a pet.I am not saying I agree with this theory because of the misrepresentation thing,but it shows where the market went just because of irresponsible breeders.Let me end by emphasizing I am not accusing anyone here of being that irresonsible breeder.This is a great thread keep them coming!John

what you said about breeders selling their poss hets as normals is true in many ways and for many reasons...

for these reasons, they just sell faster, and even for more than normals do!

trying to sell a poss het is like pulling teeth! except sometimes it actually never happens! lol..

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

nm

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

He definately had his way with her lol! She is a coral albino 66% het for anery.

Here is the female for this years breeding.

Here is the male now owned by Phil Calvert.

A couple pics of last years litter.

Sorry i got picture happy, just wanted to share the variablility of the Jungles I have produced.

Thanks,
Mark

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

JMHO.
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Greg Holland
GM HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin