Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My Jalisco Milk likes to hide under the newspaper CONSTANTLY. He never, ever comes out to explore, even at night. He eats and seems very healthy, however he's shy. He has a big dish of fresh water available for him 24x7, but since he never comes out from under the substrate, I rarely see him drink from it. The only time he's above the newspaper is right after I put him back in after handling/feeding.

Yesterday I spilled some water in his habitat and I noticed he went to where there was a large drop of water on the bottom glass that didn't have newspaper on it and took a big drink. I repeated the experiment (intentionally this time) today. He did the same thing, drinking out of the water bubble instead of going to his water bowl.

I'm guessing he's getting most of his water needs satisfied by his pinkie dinners, but wonder if I should continue to occasionally dump some water on the glass for him to drink. I'm also thinking about removing most of the newspaper, except for a few small pieces that keep the cage accessories (hides, lava rocks) from sliding. This might force him to use the hides more, rather than depending on slinking under the paper 24x7. I don't want to stress him, but he DOES have a coconut, a half log, and broken flowerpot to hide under. The problem is that he doesn't use them...

Suggestions?

Walt

that you ditch the heat lamp and go with either heat tape (which I've never used) or an undertank heater. Milksnakes tend to be kind of secretive and that bright light might be keeping him hidden more than another kind of heater would. You also might want to get a flatter water bowl, perhaps he doesn't like the depth of that one?
Just my opinions, take them or leave them.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

drsfostersmith.com has a "Bask 'N' Heat Infrared Heat Emitter" that's a 60W bulb with heat, no light... they advertise it for birds, but I'm sure it would work for my snake. Maybe I can find something similar at Petsmart/Petco(??)

maybe I'll try something like that and see how he responds.

Thanks!

Walt

I wouldn't want it to get too hot in there. I guess I could try and if it got too hot, then return it to the store...

Walt

I would have to agree with you. Removing the heat lamp would probably encourage him to seek out other areas to hide. Most of the hides in the enclosure seem to be directly under the light or have large quantities of bright light near them. Also, I think that a lamp of that size could put out too much heat, and not give him a good dual climate for him to escape to. He may be under the paper to reach the cool glass to help keep his body heat down through transferance. Most of my milks are nocturnal, and they like to come out when it's dark. I keep all of my milks on aspen bedding. I find that it is cheap, easy to clean, and gives them an alternative place to hide by burrowing. I use heat tape with a thermostat (a dimmer switch and a thermometer will do ok to) which seems to work pretty well. I also use disposable ziplock type containers for the watter dish. I use a size appropriate to the snake (give them enoough room for a loose coil) filled with enough water to come about halfway up the body of the snake. I snap on the lid and cut a hole about the size of a quarter or half dollar in the lid and encourage the snake to go in for a drink/soak. Then I place it in the enclosure at the far end of the tank from the heat source. If they want out they will crawl right out. All of my milks enjoy soaking in their dishes. Maybe this will help with the "drinking problem". I started all of mine off this way and they are doing great. Hope this helps.

Dave

1.1 Sinaloan Milks
1.1 Tri-Color Hondurans (DBL Het. Ghost)
1.0 Hypo Tangarine Hondurans
1.1 California Kingsnakes
0.1 Ball Python
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons
0.0.2 Green Iguanas
0.1 Leopard geckos

I'll give that a try. I probably have too much water in the dish anyway... too deep for him to soak.

The light keeps it around 85-90 deg on the warm side and about 74 deg on the cool side. I'm thinking about replacing with a ceramic heating element. Is 100W too much? Does it put out more/less/same heat as a 100W light bulb or more like a 60?

I was worried about Aspen or Repti Bark because it must be harder to find their waste (is it?) and it might cause bacteria to grow if you miss some.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Walt

I think the light might be the issue then, since snakes do not have eyelids, then a harsh bright light may bother him. As for the bedding, the waste may not always be visable, but once the aspen soakes up all of the moisture from it, it is an oderless dry mass that is easy to remove. I like my ceramic heat emitters for my bearded dragons and iguanas at night, but they have large enclosures (60 gal for the beaardies and a 2'x4'x6' cage type enclosure for the iguanas), so I'm not sure how much heat they trap in a tank that size. I personally like the under tank heat pad (my ball python loves hers) for a single tank, and head tape (like Flexwat) for multiple enclosures. This provides them belly heat. I think that it is better for terestrial type snakes, since they are on the ground almost all the time. The ceramic heat emitters are good for more arborial snakes like green tree pythons which sment almost all of their time in the trees. I also noticed that you have a tall branch in your enclosure. It's not a bad thing, just be very sure that he cant get out. I had one of my female Sinaloans get out of what I thought was a snake proof cage, and it took three days to find her, and I was lucky it only took that long. Hope this helps.

Dave

Yes, thanks for your help!

I took the branch out and gave it to my daughter's corn snake because my milk never climbed it. The photo you saw may be 4-6 weeks old. But basically it's the same, except more lava rocks now.

I tried the undertank pad, but it seemed WAY too hot, so I removed it. Maybe because I was using it on plastic instead of glass(??) The snake's currently in a 5 gallon and I'm gonna move up in size as he gets bigger.

The lid slides in a groove in the top and there's a slot at the back a tab slides through. Then I put a spring clip in the tab. It's very secure.

Thanks again! I'm debating re-trying the undertank pad on the glass or going to a ceramic element in the top...

Walt

You might need to get at least a rheostat to regulate the heat emitted by the heating pad, although of course, a reliable thermostat would be a better choice. What I have done is to mount the under tank heater onto a ceramic tile of the appropriate size. Then you can move it to another tank, or you can raise the tank above it a bit to decrease the heat. Are you using a digital thermometer to measure your heat? Don't rely on those stick on thermometers, and I have not had good luck with those little clock like thermometers, either. I currently use a temperature gun to measure my temps.

I have heard (don't know if it is true) that some snakes have drowned in lidded water bowls. Kind of like the people who break through ice in winter and get stuck under the ice and drown. I do like the idea of countersinking the water bowl, though.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

I have never had any problem with this type of water dish. I got the idea directly from Bob Applegate. He told me that this was the way he kept the snakes from spilling the water dish, and I don't believe that he would tell me to do anything that could endanger my snakes (especially t he ones that I got from him). It worked for him and it seems to work very well for me. I cut a large enough hole in the lid so that the snake has no trouble finding its way out, but not so large as to spill if the snake tries to tip it over. I also NEVER fill them with water deeper than half the depth of the snakes body. This will prevent drowning. If you don't feel comfortable with this type of dish, by all means, don't use it, but I think that they are a cheap, convienient, and safe way to give water to all of my milk and king snakes. The hole in the lid also helps control the evapration rate.

Dave

I didn't mean to criticise you, but wanted to repeat what I had heard. I think it is better to be safe than sorry. I think that if Bob Applegate is recommending this type of water dish, it does come with excellent references. Once again, sorry if I offended you.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

I didn't mean to sound like I was getting offended and slamming you in my last post. I just wanted to provide some good information. I guess I take for grantid the fact that I get the opportunity to talk with Bob Applegate almost every month at the San Diego Herp Society meetings. He's a great guy and is a wealth of great information. I got my first (and second, and probably every one I will ever buy) Sinaloan Milk Snakes from him. I guess I got a little defensive because it was something he told me how to do, and I'm sorry about that. I do agree that a dish like mine can be dangerous for a snake if it is too small for them, the hole is too small, or if it is too full of water. My snakes just love them, and I hope other snakes can too. I would never make a dish like this for say, my ball python. Then it would be a danger. Again, I'm sorry for my post sounding like it did, it was not my intent.

Dave

1.1 Sinaloan Milks
1.1 Tri-Color Hondurans (DBL Het. Ghost)
1.0 Hypo Tangarine Hondurans
1.1 California Kingsnakes
0.1 Ball Python
1.0.1 Bearded Dragons
0.0.2 Green Iguanas
0.1 Leopard geckos

I change all of the aspen once a week and I have never had any problem with bacteria. I think it is because I get it all and all of the moisture is removed by the shavings.

Dave

It might just be me but by the photo you posted your set up is a little on the dry side. Also your snake looks like it wants too shed but just can't because it is too dry ,it might just be the pic though. I would suggest a substrate that can help with humidity (cyprus maybe) and either going to under tank heating or a nite light type bulb. This should help you have a happier healthier snake.

Dale
PS
If you stay with news paper try at least misting the cage daily.

The reason he is hiding under the paper instead of the hides is because the hides are WAY to big! He will want to hide somewhere where he can "cram" himself into it. He needs to feel all the sides of the hides, (like the paper laying on top of him).

Jason

OK. He does use the coconut when he's above the substrate.

He's been shedding fine once a month. He used to come out for that, but believe it or not, he shed entirely under the newspaper last time.

He was blue up until yesterday, so I soaked the paper towels/newspaper in his habitat today and took him out to soak a little in my hand. He only flinched when the water sprinkled on his head/nose...lol.

I think I'll try the heating element, replace the water dish, and add Repti-Bark. Does the Repti-Bark need misting occasionally? How about a paper towel tube for a hide that runs the length of the enclosure?

This snake is sure different from our '05 King and '05 Corn...

Walt

I'm no expert but I'll agree with Jason, I think they like hides that are low enough that the hide touches them on the back a little. I use a fairly flat piece of bark I got out in the woods.
Until I put that in there my milk was staying under the paper too.

Scott

I agree too. My Hypo Honduran crammed himself between the lid and the edge of the tub I keep him in when I'm cleaning his enclosure. it kinda freaked me out since he looked a little squished. Every time I got him out of the edge, he was right back up there. That's another thing I like about the aspen is that they can hide in it.

Dave

wow,lots of good questions...though i prefer newspaper generally,for milks,and some kings,i find they do well in aspen shavings-but i feed them in bare-botomed feeding enclosures to avoid ingestion of any substrate....aspen can easily be spot cleaned,but also like others said it should be completely replaced i would say about every 4-6 weeks or so....yeah those hides are improperly marketed as ideal-when have you ever seen/found a snake in the wild hiding under anything that wasn't snug atop his/her back?for example,mine do use paper towel rolls/toothpaste boxes/frozen dinner boxes(for larger ones,of course),etc....but also,like was mentioned above,i think he's trying to thermoregulate,or stay cool more specifically,by hiding under the news...i would ditch the light bulb(btw a 100w ceramic heat emmitter will be a lot hotter than a 100w incandescent light bulb-all the power is being transmitted in the form of radiant heat,where with the light bulb,a lot of the b.t.u.'s/power will of course be transmitted as light-off the top of my head,i would say a 100w light bulb=60w ceramic heat emmitter in terms of heat conducted)...but again,an under-tank heat pad or tape on one side is best for a milk,the light will deter him from coming out a lot....yeah also i would get a shallower water bowl,but i also liked the lidded glad-ware container suggested above by someone else..or at least you could countersink your current water bowl down into some aspen bedding-i find lots of snakes just don't seem to equate 'up' with water....for hunidity,i find placing the water bowl over the heat tape suffices via increased evaporation...hell sometimes i even place 2 bowls in an enclosure,one on each end,but that looks like a pretty big water bowl you have...your temps don't sound too bad,maybe a tad high on the warm end-i would shoot for a total gradient(overall,cool to warm side) of 73/74 to more like 85/86....i would'nt mist that bark stuff too often,like 1-2 times a week max-it holds moisture a lot,in fact i don't like it becasue i've seen mold form on feces in enclosures with that in it...overall,sounds like he's doing fine-i just think you may see him more,and he may do better,with undertank heat,and lower hide boxes.just my opinion,but it works for me,good luck.

If I go to undertank heat, can somebody give me a web link to an appropriate wattage pad? I don't want to fry the poor guy, but I want it to be warm enough on the warm side.

MUCH THANKS FOR EVERYBODY'S HELP!

Walt

hey they all use 120 volts...a good size for your tank pictured would be the one that burns 8 watts,it's about 6x8 or so inches.zoo med makes them,as do other companies like exo terra by hagen.

Is the under tank pad better than a ceramic element from above? I mean, the Sun is above, warms the Earth, then goes down. I guess I'd save electricity ($$) by using a heat pad. I'm still just worried about such a hot spot as well as heat damage to the wood furniture it's on. What if I mount it on the side of the tank (or wrap it around the corner) instead? I think I remember from when I tried one before that it's an option in the instructions...

Also, can I then use a flourescent light to view my snake??

Walt

ok that's a no-go on the wrap-around technique...hot spots are the result of those damned hot rocks/sizzle stones/etc,which the herp can come in direct contact with...an u.t.h.('under-tank heater') will get the floor surface temp no more than about 90 degrees ferenheit,which is fine.put newspaper or some aspen on that,it's more like 85,perfect also...an u.t.h. doesn't heat the space/air in a certain part/area of the tank (a.k.a. heat of convection);it's a surface heat(a.k.a. heat of conduciton) as a result of being in direct contact with the tank's floor,which is the surface your snake lies on-not the walls of the tank,that's why the wrap it around the walls won't work;unless it's in a rack system(your pic showed a regular free-standing aquarium),the heat would just eminate in all directions,not just into the enclosure,like you want.if you insist on the lamp fixture,at least switch to a ceramic heater or a black or red light....the reg. light bulb you have now forces you to choose between a natural light/dark cycle,and a 24-7 heat source...the snake should have both.

I agree. Under tank heaters are used UNDER tanks. I have never had problesm with one damaging furnature, but if you are worried you can get some adhesive plastic pads for each corner of the tank to rais it 1/4 inch. that will keep it from contacting the furniture. Almost all snakes that are terestrial (that live on the ground) absorb heat best through their bellys. They stay out of direct sunlight during the day, and come out in the cooler part of the day, but stay warm because the sun has already warmed the earths surface. Sea snakes and tree pythons are some examples of snakes that absorb head through the air and direct sunlight, since they are not usualy in contact with pre-warmed earth. I also don't like the large chunk orchid bark for the mold and moisture factor. I only use it for my ball python, since they don't poop that often, and I can change all of it when they do. I also feed in bare surface containers. Most of my snakes like to eat in paper bags. I have a seperate tank to feed my ball python in too. This keeps them from ingesting substrate and to not associate their home with food, or you may end up with a biter on your hands (no pun intended).

Dave

I bought some crushed walnut shells, but then read a caution in the heat pad instructions against it, so I called Zoo Med. The guy says they're bad. When I asked about Repti Bark (their product), he said that would be fine.

However, when I read Kathy Love's (the Corn Snake guru) book, the section on substrate says stay away from ANY resinous woods, including fir (which is what Repti Bark is made from) ESPECIALLY the bark.

Kathy puts Cypress Mulch in the same category as Aspen shavings, so I thought I'd give that a try. I can get a big bag of it at Home Depot for cheap. I think I'd be more alergic to the Aspen shavings.

Does anybody have a problem with Cypress Mulch? Suggestions? I'm definitely taking the walnut shells (ESU) back. Also, they're a dessicant and could actually REMOVE moisture from my snake.

Walt

I love cypress mulch. You can get it in lg qty at lowes or Depot or in smaller amounts from petco (not sure it pets mart has it. It stays moist when misted, you may want a humidity gauge to help you know when to mist it. I use it in my snake cages. I do recomend changing the mulch out every 2-3 weeks to keep it fresh and sometimes starts to really decompose if left in the cage too long. Try it you will love it.

Dale

I made a humid hide with moss, I used the cypress mulch and stacked it so the water dish is not "high". I also put less water in the dish. I put the heat pad under the tank. For now, I'm going to keep the light on the rest of the evening along with the heat pad (since it says it takes 6 hrs to heat up). I'll continue to check the temp, and when the light goes out, I'll check late tonight and again in the morning (heat pad running 24x7). That way I'll know if I still need the light or not.

While I was working on Tweek's habitat, since he was due to shed, I put him in a small Critter Keeper with his coconut hide, a lava rock, and a sopping wet paper towel. He laid between the side and the wet paper towel for a while, then I forgot about him. When I checked on him a while later he had shed, the little stinker! I wanted to get pictures of this one... In the 3 months I've had him he's shed on Nov 11th, Dec 12th, and Jan 11th... lol! Like clockwork.

Anyway, I put him in the new habitat and he coiled between the pile of lava rocks and the side of the humid hide. As I maneuvered around for pictures, he slowly sank out of sight. I know he's burrowed under the mulch like he did the newspaper, but now he has more heat below and the tank is much wetter. It will be interesting to see if he goes in the humid hide.

By the way, he HAS been soaking in the water dish in the old arrangement, because tonight when I went to re-do it after work, he had a big poop in there!

I'll post pictures sometime tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help folks!

Walt (and Tweek)

It sounds like you are going to have a very happy snake on your hands. I like the cypress mulch too, the only problem that I have with it is they shred an entire tree to make it, kinda a waste. but other than that it's great. I finally crawled out of the Dark Ages and got a digital camera, so I will be posting some pictures of my snakes in the near future. Good luck to you and tweak.

Dave

You really should try the moist hide trick - plastic shoebox filled with damp sphagnum moss over the heated area of the cage.

As for heating, nobody can prove that undertank yields better results than overhead heat. But, for secretive, ground dwelling and ground-thermoregulating snakes like Jaliscos, undertank heat makes sense. You'll need a temp controller (lamp dimmer or thermostat). Heat pads can get too hot, especially on glass, and therefore are no different than a hot rock in that regard if used incorrectly.

Kingsnakes and milksnakes are secretive. That is their nature. But in nature, they are able to choose their moisture levels and temps to a fair degree. Your snake cannot in your cage. He has one moisture level - dry. Give the snake a choice.