Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While checking over the brumating snakes and changing their water, I took a couple of quick snaps of a male.

I hope this is good enough so you can see the scalation of the head in this one Terry.

Cheers, Devboy.

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Devboy.

They definitely remind me of Pituophis. Health looking critter.
Regards
John

>>They definitely remind me of Pituophis. Health looking critter.
>>Regards
>>John
Thanks very much John, although I couldn't quite pull off the use of the hand motif like you do, which is where I feel I have failed! Guess that takes years of practise though.
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Devboy.

>>Thanks very much John, although I couldn't quite pull off the use of the hand motif like you do, which is where I feel I have failed! Guess that takes years of practise though.
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>>Devboy.

Dev:
Don't feel bad about the hand shots. It's taken me years to develop it to a high art form. In fact I've moved into a new stage. I called it the closed hand shot. The baby snake is now completely covered by the hand. It's like those exhibitions where they cover a building with a drape. You can't see it but you know it's there. Recently I put together a group of shots where I was photographing Elaphe davidi, Elaphe bella and Euprepiophis perlacea all completely enclosed in my hand. I hope to continue this trend with a hand shot of a living baby dodo bird followed by a two handed shot of the only living example of a baby triceratops.

I live for my art.
Best regards
John

>>>>Thanks very much John, although I couldn't quite pull off the use of the hand motif like you do, which is where I feel I have failed! Guess that takes years of practise though.
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>>>>Devboy.
>>
>>
>>Dev:
>>Don't feel bad about the hand shots. It's taken me years to develop it to a high art form. In fact I've moved into a new stage. I called it the closed hand shot. The baby snake is now completely covered by the hand. It's like those exhibitions where they cover a building with a drape. You can't see it but you know it's there. Recently I put together a group of shots where I was photographing Elaphe davidi, Elaphe bella and Euprepiophis perlacea all completely enclosed in my hand. I hope to continue this trend with a hand shot of a living baby dodo bird followed by a two handed shot of the only living example of a baby triceratops.
>>
>>I live for my art.
>>Best regards
>>John
>>
>> You sure do John, to think all the public see is the end result, they don't understand how much 'we' artists bleed for our art. All the best with the Dodo's and triceratops closed hand portraits, they sound splendid. The closed hand shot sounds like a revolution, one that will shake the establishment to it's knees...okay, I'll stop there before they take my weekend freedom away from me as well. As nice and comfortable as those white rooms are, I do enjoy the fresh air. It's also nice to give my nose a rest from bashing it on the keyboard for these posts.
Excellent pic!
Dev.

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Devboy.

NT

Great pics, Dev, and nice looking snake. They don't seem so different in scalation from quatuorlineata, to me, but they don't have the pre-subocular scale, and do have the enlarged rostral. I'm sure genetics will tell us in the future.

Here's another member of the Orthriophis, Moellendorff's ratsnake. It does have the pre-subocular scale, like taeniura TC

>>Great pics, Dev, and nice looking snake. They don't seem so different in scalation from quatuorlineata, to me, but they don't have the pre-subocular scale, and do have the enlarged rostral. I'm sure genetics will tell us in the future.
>>
>>Here's another member of the Orthriophis, Moellendorff's ratsnake. It does have the pre-subocular scale, like taeniura TC
>>
>>
>>
OMG!!! Beautiful snake, very lovely, also I hear very very hard to keep alive unfortunately. Yours looks in great condition though Terry, all kudos to you! I hear they prefer quite cool temps (I'm guessing similar to Bimacs & Dione's if not a little cooler with plenty cover)? Keep posting these gorgeous snakes guys! My knee's have gone weak and I have butterflies in my stomach, great!
Dev.
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Devboy.

>>OMG!!! Beautiful snake, very lovely, also I hear very very hard to keep alive unfortunately. Yours looks in great condition though Terry, all kudos to you! I hear they prefer quite cool temps (I'm guessing similar to Bimacs & Dione's if not a little cooler with plenty cover)? Keep posting these gorgeous snakes guys! My knee's have gone weak and I have butterflies in my stomach, great!
>>Dev.
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>>Devboy.

Moellendorffi is a fascinating species, Dev. I dearly loved them, but they took up too much space and resources, etc, so I traded them off to work with easier species. Thus I'm specializing in the miniature Eurasians: bimacs, dione, and situla.

I did study their ecology and natural history for a number of years, however. I recommend a choice of temps for them. They are quite capable of surviving and digesting at cooler temps, unlike corn snakes, for ref. But they do well at my normal room temps also, including up to 82*F. They avoid dessication (dry) in winter, thus brumating around four months, and also avoid extreme heat/humidity in summer, thus very secretive. They are a morning snake, and I'm sure use some heat for digestion. If you ever try them let me know...

I've been reading up on scutellation of Old World ratsnakes, Schulz ('96), and have found the presence of the subocular scale quite variable, but present in almost all Elaphe. Russian ratsnakes usually don't have it, but sometimes do. The southern ssps, anomala, may have it more. Most of the tropical species of ratsnakes don't have it, but are in separate genera now anyway, thanks to Utiger, et al, and others. All the Elaphe, like carinata, climacophora, and quadrivirgata have it. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be related, just seems like a characteristic of the old ratsnake genera that were closer to the racers, i.e. colubers. I think it helps show the two groups, racers and ratsnakes, were once very closely related.

Here's a little pic of a Kunisar Island ratsnake, Elaphe climacophora. Love the head scalation on this one...

Terry,
Interesting post as always. I do hope one day to keep some moellendorffi & for that matter, Dione's, Bimacs, situla, longissimus.....I could also be tempted with climacophora, even the 'duller' ones not from Kunisar Island. I really need to win the lotto or do a bank 'job'!
That's a beautiful example of the Kunisar Island form! Stunning.
For now my efforts are restricted to Trinkets, Ladders, Four Lineds and Easterns. Apart from a few other non ratsnake snakes (Argie Boas & Plains garters), I've recently stripped down my collection, I think it has benefited the snakes that are left and myself. Seems to have invigorated my enthusiasm too.
Kind regards, Dev.
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Devboy.

Good morning

I only have a few minutes, as I have to go back to work today, but wanted to answer your collection comments.

I too am always cutting back. I've switched to small, "pet" species, because I'll be moving to Arizona in a couple years, and I'll be doing a lot of field work with kings and ratsnakes. We can only keep a limited number where we live there, so, I narrowed my Eurasian sps. down to Elaphe bimaculata and dione and Zamenis situla. These all have very interesting characteristics and behaviors and are beautiful snakes. They are all hardy and fairly easy to keep and breed, as are most of the Eurasian rats. Let me know if you get any.

If you get climacophora, that's an interesting species too. If I could afford the space in time it's one of the ones I'd go back to. They make a pretty good pet and are quite variable. I also would go back to moellendorffi if I could make room for that large a snake. They are terribly interesting and need more research and a specialist. The ones you have are good too, only I'm not familiar with the boa. I like the Plains garter also, but don't keep any. I'll be studying their habitat one of these days though and want to compare them with Butler's garter which I've been studying for years. Your other snakes are great to keep for study and other reasons. I love seeing pix of the trinkets, four-lineds, Easterns, and ladders. I would keep trinkets again if I could, very interesting, and the quats are so important to any discussion of the Elaphe as a group. Good luck with them all and keep the posts coming. Thanks.

My South Korean dione, subadult female, is a real honey of a pet... TC

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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Hello Terry,

You've got an interesting discussion going on here. Long time ago, when I was still a teenager, I kept lots of European ratsnakes and racers. To me, Old World racers like Coluber viridiflavus and C. hippocrepis always seemed quite different from Old World ratsnakes like Elaphe quatorlineata and Zamenis longissimus. Rinechis scalaris, on the other hand, has always been an oddball to me, but I don't think it is racerlike at all. It resembles a Bull Snake more then anything else, kind of a very extreme case of convergent evolution (unless of course Christopher Columbus took a few Pituophis back to Spain, LOL).

The thing is, most ratsnakes and most racers are very generalized colubrids, and they all share a common ancestor. Therefore in my opinion minor atavisms in scalation shouldn't always be interpreted as a relationship determent. For instance, based on mitochondrial DNA and hemipenal morphology, obviously Elaphe quatorlineata is related to Elaphe schrenkii more closely than to Coluber viridiflavus, but if you choose to focus solely on headscalation instead, results would be different. And wrong!

Just a thought I wanted to share with you. I do think there are some Old World ratsnakes and racers out there that fall somewhere in between. I'm thinking here of genera like Spalerosophis, Euprepiophis, as well as some of the more primitive members of Coluber like C. ravergieri and C. nummifer. So I do understand your point of view.

Kind regards, Herman.

>>Hello Terry,
>>
>>You've got an interesting discussion going on here. Long time ago, when I was still a teenager, I kept lots of European ratsnakes and racers. To me, Old World racers like Coluber viridiflavus and C. hippocrepis always seemed quite different from Old World ratsnakes like Elaphe quatorlineata and Zamenis longissimus. Rinechis scalaris, on the other hand, has always been an oddball to me, but I don't think it is racerlike at all. It resembles a Bull Snake more then anything else, kind of a very extreme case of convergent evolution (unless of course Christopher Columbus took a few Pituophis back to Spain, LOL).
>>
>>The thing is, most ratsnakes and most racers are very generalized colubrids, and they all share a common ancestor. Therefore in my opinion minor atavisms in scalation shouldn't always be interpreted as a relationship determent. For instance, based on mitochondrial DNA and hemipenal morphology, obviously Elaphe quatorlineata is related to Elaphe schrenkii more closely than to Coluber viridiflavus, but if you choose to focus solely on headscalation instead, results would be different. And wrong!
>>
>>Just a thought I wanted to share with you. I do think there are some Old World ratsnakes and racers out there that fall somewhere in between. I'm thinking here of genera like Spalerosophis, Euprepiophis, as well as some of the more primitive members of Coluber like C. ravergieri and C. nummifer. So I do understand your point of view.
>>
>>Kind regards, Herman.

Nice input Herman,
I don't think either myself or Terry was claiming that scalation alone could or should be used as a 'tool' to determine relationships between snakes. I like very much what you say regarding "most ratsnakes and most racers are very generalised colubrids, and they all share a common ancestor" - I feel your spot on. I also think that R.scalaris is a little 'out there'. Interesting points raised. Many thanks, Dev.

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Devboy.

Hello, Herman.

Just for clarification, I'm not saying racers and ratsnakes are terribly closely related, such as in the same genera, but in the same subfamily, yes!! If you follow the family tree back in time, say to the early Miocene, then racers and ratsnakes may not have split, yet, from the common family stock. Some of the early genera probably weren't much different from some we have today, such Spalerosophis, Euprepiophis, some Colubers, Gonyosoma, and a few others. I just think that subocular scale is curious and possibly indicative of the relationship bt. Old World racers and ratsnakes. Maybe it's a leftover character from those very early times.

I also think it's curious that most of our North American ratsnakes are more evolved and have been left without that subocular scale, whereas, many of our racers still have that character which possibly hasn't changed since they entered the New World and started evolving.

Here's a not so great photo from an Arizona trip of a Sonoran whipsnake, just barely showing the characteristic scale...

This is an even worse photo of a desert patchnose snake showing the scale...

Don't you think these racer-like snakes look a lot like ratsnakes? Even though they are generalized forms, they could still be related, don't you think? I wish someone would do some more detailed work with the Old World racers and compare them to some of these ratsnakes.

When I said some European ratsnakes were somewhat like racers, I was actually referring to their racer-like behavior mostly. A couple other characteristics lead me to think that also, including the "scale" in some instances, and others. Just can't help feeling there's some connection there which should be pursued.

Thanks for chiming in and would love to hear more about the more primitive racers you mentioned, like ravergieri and nummifer. If you have photos or any other info about them, feel free to expand. Thanks, and feel free to take an opposing view...

Terry

Okay, I don't have the scientific background that you guys have, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I notice definite behavioral differences between my clicacophora and my NA ratsnakes (a Bairds and an obsoleta)...the climac is extremely alert, reactive, and responsive to visual cues, will dash across his tank to investigate a finger wiggling on the other side of the glass, and frequently basks under a lightbulb like a lizard...in fact, I think of him as being quite "lizard-like", which I suppose is what you would describe as racer-like...the NA rats are much slower and more deliberate in their movements and both seem to depend more on scent than sight..I've also never seen either of them bask under a light, though I've heard that some do...Anyhow, I find it pretty fascinating...thanks for the interesting discussion...

SR

Interesting point, Shelley, and thanks for the comments.

I've often said I thought the Japanese ratsnake is the most like American ratsnakes of all the Old World snakes. And, yet, you can still see some difference in behavior. Some of that is due to diurnal activity and adaptation to a coolish climate. Although some of the obsoleta are cool adapted too, and can be found out during the day.

I remember working with Russian ratsnakes, E. schrencki, and noting that they looked like a cross bt. an Eastern king and a black rat, but they were quite active in the daytime and had an extremely fast metabolism, another characteristic shared with some racers. All in all, the Old World ratsnakes deserve their distinct classification, imho, as the New World ratsnakes are quite far removed in behavior and other ways. ASAMOF, as a taxonomist once told me, the green ratsnake, Senticolis triaspis, is probably closer to the Old World ratsnakes, than it is to any members of Pantherophis. So, bairdi and obsoleta are probably pretty far removed from them too, certainly behaviorally.

Anyway, it's an interesting exercise, and I enjoy trying to generate new ideas about how these snakes are related.

Cheers....TC

Hey Terry,

I understand what you're trying to say here. My point is that scalation isn't always a reliable character to determine relationship. A few examples to underline my point of view: Based exclusively on anterior scalation, Pituophis deppei and P. lineaticollis should be placed in Pantherophis and, even worse, Sistrurus spp. should be placed in Agkistrodon and, even worse than that, Calabaria reinhardti should be placed in Lichanura**. I think we all agree how wrong that would be. To me its seems that the presence of a little scale anterior to the eye really doesn't mean that much. Scalation in snakes could be as adaptable and variable, and therefore as (in)significant for it's use in relationship determination, as coloration. It can be used to determine relationship between very closely related species, but I wouldn't take it further than that.

I do agree that Old World ratsnakes are more closely related to Old World racers, than New World ratsnakes are to New World racers. But I also believe that Old World ratsnakes, in general, are related much more closely to New World ratsnakes, than to Old World racers. It could very well be, however, that some of the more primitive Old World ratsnakes turn out to be racers, and vice versa, or that this whole distinction between Colubrinids and Lampropeltinids turns out to be artificial. However, based on the information we actually have, it would be premature to drawn any of such conclusions.

Kind regards, Herman.

** Actually, Calabaria already has been placed in Lichanura.

np

Herman, I agree scalation by itself isn't a reliable tool for classification, but what about in conjunction with other characteristics. Even genetics alone is not enough, as far as I'm concerned. But these things can be suggestive. Do you know if anyone has done dna testing with the Old World racers and/or compared them to the Old World ratsnakes? I think until the real taxonomists take some action and give us some research data to go by, amateurs like me will keep guessing at relationships.

Anyway, I appreciate your input. Some of the more primitive Old World ratsnakes may be placed with the racers, in new genera, like the Gonyosoma sps. Also, it might be possible some of the Old World racers might be placed in a ratsnake genus. Actually, with some of the most primitive genera or species, it could be very hard to tell whether it is a ratsnake or a racer. How do we define that? I think before they started branching off they were all just one snake, a combined ratsnake/racer, in other words, a common ancestor. But that's just my mental wonderings and we may never know for sure.

Have a great weekend....Terry

np

That is a nice looking scalaris. Here is a link to some scalaris photos of some younger animals that still have the "ladder" pattern. --Scott

Scott John Reptiles

>>That is a nice looking scalaris. Here is a link to some scalaris photos of some younger animals that still have the "ladder" pattern. --Scott
>>
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>>Scott John Reptiles

Hi Scott, Nice babies on your site. Have you got any adult scalaris that still retain their juvenile patterning? If you have I'd be very interested to know if it's a she too. Below is a link to an earlier post of mine, showing a 14yr old with partial juvenile pattern.
Kind regards, Dev.

My favouirte Ladder Girl!

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Devboy.

My females do seem to have more of the "ladders" than my males but they are rather young and may lose them later. I've heard the same thing about males and females being different in retaining their pattern. The photo on my site is a couple of years old. I'll get some new photos soon. What locale are your animals and are you in the US? --Scott
Scott John Reptiles

>>My females do seem to have more of the "ladders" than my males but they are rather young and may lose them later. I've heard the same thing about males and females being different in retaining their pattern. The photo on my site is a couple of years old. I'll get some new photos soon. What locale are your animals and are you in the US? --Scott
>>Scott John Reptiles

Hi Scott,
Out of the 7 Adults I have, I only know that one was a descendant of an animal from Portugal (which is now 14yrs old). I don't even know where in Portugal. I cannot trace the ancestry of any of the others unfortunately. I really wish I could.
I'm from the UK, England.
Not too divergent from the pattern retention in adults, can I ask how many adults you have and what sex ratio, also are your males generally larger? Schulz mentions that from a study of animals from the Iberian Peninsular (Pleguezuelos 1990), the results show a strong sexual bias of females being larger. In my collection, the largest animal is male, with the bias generally being male for the larger snakes. Most people I've asked have found that to be the case too, I'd be very interested on your comments on what is the case with yours. If, as I suspect, females are generally smaller growing at a slower rate, that might partly explain why some take longer to complete their ontogenetic shift or retard it in a few. The silver example in the link above, is a small lady, under 4ft certainly. It might also follow that if females are on the small side that their adult livery might not fully develop, in the odd case. Having said that, I have a female of equal size (but 4yrs old) that lost her juvenile patterning completely around three years old.
Kind regards, Dev.
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Devboy.

I have 2.2 adults, a pair from France and a pair from Spain. It is interesting to me that you have one from Portugal. My father was from Portugal and I have a cousin who is a biologist there. I'm trying to get up with him to see if he can arrange for some European Ratsnakes to be sent this way. Unfortunately he is not a herpetologist but an ichthyologist. My animals are just 4 yrs old and my females are larger but that my be due to me feeding them more. That silver specimen was really nice.

>>I have 2.2 adults, a pair from France and a pair from Spain. It is interesting to me that you have one from Portugal. My father was from Portugal and I have a cousin who is a biologist there. I'm trying to get up with him to see if he can arrange for some European Ratsnakes to be sent this way. Unfortunately he is not a herpetologist but an ichthyologist. My animals are just 4 yrs old and my females are larger but that my be due to me feeding them more. That silver specimen was really nice.

Hi John,
Yes she is my favourite out of my original four (2.2 all 14yrs old and not related, well not likely anyway). I now have a total of 3.4.
Perhaps, the large male bias in my collection is due to me giving them what they want within reason, chance or they are as freaky as myself! Thanks very much for the info John.
I hope you manage to get your hands on some Portugal blood. In S. Portugal, unsurprisingly, they probably don't need to brumate. If you are able to get some red examples, would you mind 'dropping' a few off to me in England? Lol.
Kind regards and very wishful thinking, Dev.

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Devboy.