Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well can ya? From what I've dug up in the archives you can't for sure. A male might not pop, but your not sure if it's female because they can probe up to eight scales deep. I just probed my pair and it looks like the male is female and the female is male! I also poped them but couldn't really tell, a small amount of white substance did pop out of the one I think is a male. What does sperm look like? I don't see how anyone would want to spend any kind of money on snakes when you can't even tell male from female!!

The easiest way is to pop them as hatchlings - within the first two weeks they don't have any muscle control so the penes come out fairly easily. After that it's pretty much a crapshoot - females can probe deep, males can probe shallow, females can produce plugs (this one was a new one for me) and it nothing short of maybe laying eggs or possibly an x-ray can be 100%.

Sperm plugs are a waxy booger like substance often they'll come out of both sides. You can also get a chalky waste product when popping - comes out of males and females - just from the other side of the cloaca (sperm plugs come from one side waste from the other).
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Alright I guess I'll have to ride it out for a while, at least they are cheap, hopefully one is a female. Buyer beware if you just want to breed for personal satisfaction. If you think you can break even forget about it, you will get burnt and loose money! If worst comes to worst I'll just freeze'em, they eat'em in Africa, taste like chicken!!!!

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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

That does look like a booger! The stuff I saw was bright white maybe it dries like that, who noes. I'm calling the dude I got'em from!

n/p
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Hello Tosha.

I don't agree that it's a crap shoot. Popping, if you know how to do it right, is 100% accurate at any age. What you see is what you get - either there are penes or there are not. No guesswork involved at all. If someone has to guess they are not doing it right.

From what I have seen, many of those out there selling snakes (even some dealers and breeders who have been around a long time), are not that proficient at sexing snakes - I'm not sure why that's the case. This doesn't mean it CAN'T be done properly, every time.

Christy

I agree - it can be done and a lot of people have mastered it to a degree of accuracy, but it does take practice and mistakes do happen. I personally cannot reliably pop a big snake - and I'd bet there are more people that can't then those that can.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

More to the point, the amount of pressure you would have to use to pop some adult males could cause injury to the very organs you are trying to see...
Some adult males are more "relaxed", but some are just stubborn. However, in my experience, even those that are stubborn will produce some sperm while trying to pop them, making it pretty clear.
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when life hands you lemons, make super lemons, bumblebees, etc...

If a snake is probed correctly then you will know if it is a male or female FOR SURE. Probing is the most accurite and not a crap shoot if done by someone who knows what they are doing.

>>The easiest way is to pop them as hatchlings - within the first two weeks they don't have any muscle control so the penes come out fairly easily. After that it's pretty much a crapshoot - females can probe deep, males can probe shallow, females can produce plugs (this one was a new one for me) and it nothing short of maybe laying eggs or possibly an x-ray can be 100%.
>>
>>Sperm plugs are a waxy booger like substance often they'll come out of both sides. You can also get a chalky waste product when popping - comes out of males and females - just from the other side of the cloaca (sperm plugs come from one side waste from the other).
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>>Tosha
>>
>>"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
>>
>>
>>
>>10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
>>0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@cox.net

Males have Hemipenes and females have scent glands. Every animal I pop, one or the other always is Everted. That goes for Hatchlings and adults alike, everting is the only way I ever do it.

Well don't you make it sound easy, I think maybe I'll buy from you next.......NOT!!!

What exactly is the problem with what I said? I use a different technique than anyone else I know, Except for Brian Gundy from For Goodness Snakes that uses my technique.

With a little patience practice and experience you can sex snakes with more then a 99% accuracy. Nobody will ever be 100% accurate, I don't care how long they've been doing it. I've sexed thousands of snakes and while I haven't yet had a customer complain, I know that I've missexed a few that I held back for myself. Every species is different too. I don't have as much experience with sexing ball pythons, I've probably only sexed about a 100 of them myself and I've found them to be a bit more difficult then other species. Corns and most colubrids are easy, Some kingsnakes are difficult because they crap all over everything and there seems to be no end to the stuff coming out of them. A number of years ago a friend called me over to sex some hatchling egg eating snakes for him. I couldn't pop them with any degree of accuracy but they were a snap to probe.

I've found balls to be the easiest to pop right out of the egg, but it is possible to pop adults too, though I don't feel real comfortable doing this myself with any degree of accuracy. Probing can be more difficult because sometimes the males will clench up so tight that you can't get a probe through, but if you take your time and outlast them long enough for them to relax you can be pretty accurate. As far as popping sperm plugs, I've been confused before too by popping plug like things out of females. At least in my experience these mucus plugs though do look different then sperm plugs, and once you've seen them you'll know what to look for.

Unlike some people, I actually do resex my Juveniles and subadults from time to time just to see if anything changes. I know some people don't like to do this for fear of harming the snake, but sexing a snake doesn't harm it. Doing it WRONG is what harms it. Practice is what helps you become more accurate.

>>Well can ya? From what I've dug up in the archives you can't for sure. A male might not pop, but your not sure if it's female because they can probe up to eight scales deep. I just probed my pair and it looks like the male is female and the female is male! I also poped them but couldn't really tell, a small amount of white substance did pop out of the one I think is a male. What does sperm look like? I don't see how anyone would want to spend any kind of money on snakes when you can't even tell male from female!!

I see your point, but some of us actually CAN tell a male from a female .

Christy

Hi all –

I don’t want to come across as a know-it-all (‘cause I sure don’t) and I don’t mean to insult anyone .... but a couple of statements in this thread call out for some clarification.

First, terminology. There are no such things as “penes” in snakes. I don’t know why it bugs me, but hearing the reproductive organs of male snakes referred to inaccurately strikes me kind of like referring to a human male’s penis as an “is” or maybe a "eni." Why would you? In snakes, one of the structures is a hemipenis, more than one are hemipenes. No penes.

Someone in this thread said, “Males have Hemipenes and females have scent glands.” This is incorrect. Both male and female snakes have scent glands.

Regarding material that may be manually expressed from a snake’s tail. Since both males and females have scent glands, it is possible that you could get material from a female that you could mistake for seminal fluid or for sperm plugs if you are applying pressure to the base of a female’s tail. Another good reason not to bother trying to evert the hemipenes of adult snakes.

Finally, when someone claims 100% infallibility in being able to distinguish a male from a female snake, I’ve got to be a bit skeptical. And if my money is involved, I would get downright nervous. To be generous, I’d have to assume that they simply haven’t made a mistake yet, or more likely, haven’t realized that they’ve made mistakes in the past. Who, after all, never makes mistakes? Certainly, however, some people are more proficient than others in their technique. And some may be better at probing, say, than at popping. Buyer beware!

-Joan

Tho I agree with you, since you addressed something I said - I'll reply - I use the word "penes" the same way I would use the word ball instead of ball python, het instead of heterozygous, homo instead of homozygous or hypo instead of hypomelanistic - just a known abreviation - not a mispronounciation of the part.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Hi Joan,

As far as penes vs. hemipenes go, to me penes is just a shortening of the word for the sake of brevity. I suppose there are no such thing as het albinos either - just animals that are heterozygous for the gene....but we all call them hets. Most of us call hemipenes "penes." It's not because we do not realize the correct term, it's just we are lazy .

As far as scent glands go, when I evert the "hemipenes" - (I did that just for you, Joan, don't expect it on a regular basis, LOL!) I am not depending on seeing sperm to get the sex of the snake. I am depending on my ability to pop out the penes. I see them (or one), and I know it's a boy.

Am I claiming to be 100% accurate on large animals? No, but I bet I am 99% accurate. I'm not bragging, I just had a good teacher in Ralph, and after being sent a $4,500 snake that was the wrong sex (and me not catching it), I decided I was going to learn this skill. Practice makes perfect - and practice also has taught me to do it quickly and without harming the animal.

There is no reason others can't learn to sex balls accurately - except for this nagging idea that it's impossible and a "crapshoot."

Christy

Since you seem to be dwelling on it - I retract my "crapshoot" word.

Also - the problem is that there aren't enough people that can accuratly pop a big ball python to teach people how to reliably do it - therefore it is understood that probing be the best choice among the less skilled. Both hold a potential for error, please note I only said nothing is 100%.

Just curious - if you pop a large ball and get no penes - I mean hemipenes - do you also probe it to be on the safe side? Would you plop down $10K on a large ball that you have just "popped" female?

I have no doubt with your skill - unfortunately a majority of people don't have a teacher nor the opportunity to practice popping a couple hundred snakes - so to say anyone can learn how to do it properly isnt necessarily true.

Just some food for thought.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Hi Tosha,

Interesting question - yes, if I popped it a girl and wanted girl (and had the 10K, which I don't), I trust it was a girl. For me, popping is way more accurate than probing. I don't trust anyone's probing 100%, including my own.

I did learn through good teaching and practice, but I didn't have hundreds of animals to practice on. I just practiced with my own periodically (I knew what sex they were so I knew if I was doing it right or not).

This does not take hours of teaching to learn - but it does take practice of the technique and a little finesse. To succeed as a hobbiest and breeder, being able to sex correctly (to me) is very important. So, I hate to see people settle for the idea that one can't be accurate.

Good luck this season,

Christy

Yes males have scent glands but they do not evert like a female, and yes adults are ridiculously easy to evert regardless of sex.

The fluid that a scent gland has is a greeninsh brown, and a males sperm fluid is a milky white so you couldn't/shouldn't get the fluids mixed up. That is just my 2 cents from my dealing with ball pythons for about the last 4 years. Thanks David

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)