Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've owned a pet store for a year now. I researched all my local and state laws and I'm aware(as most of us are) that federal law prohibites the sale of turtles and torts under 4" in size. I also understand the reasoning. I don't agree but I understand. But am I the only one who follows this? My competition has baby turtles and torts often as well as water turtles (most are illegal here). Who polices this? I don't want to get anyone in trouble but am tempted to bend some rules myself. I operate my store with as much moral and ethical care as possible and I don't want to make a problem worse. But dang those baby torts are cute! What do the rest of you educated folks think about this? I'm not running out to buy illegal critters but I'm curious if this is as common as I think it is.

honestly when im out and about if i see a baby turt or tort in the store if its one i like i buy it. first of all there are exceptions to the law, for instance scientific, educational or exhibitional purposes, like my excuse is that im doing an experiment to see the effects of keeping a caged animal compared to a wild one, or im doing this to see how long of a lifespan these animals have compared to native ones.

The FDA does not consider turtles sold from a pet store (or mall kiosk or flea market) to be for educational or scientific use.

Few non-hobbyist consumers know about the 4" rule, and even fewer know how to report violations (calling the regional FDA office or health department).

What do your state regulations say about it? In Maryland, it's part of the state code of regulations.

What you could consider doing is posting a sign that shows a picture of a hatchling slider 4 years = a picture of an adult slider - might convince those persons considering buying a hatchling that it's not in their best interest. Or even better, show a picture of a hatchling cooter 4 years = .....

You could also work with a local or regional reptile rescue to post pictures of adoptable sliders in your store, if the rescue recommends your pet store to their adopters or on their website - free advertisement for you, and you don't have to re-stock animals and clean up after them. Petco gives out a "care package" with coupons for dog food and dog toys to people that show they have adopted a dog from a rescue, maybe you could do the same for reptiles - lots of repeat customers that way.

Katrina

Thanks for the input. I like your ideas for sales. I am trying to keep within the laws for both state and federal. As I've stated, my state, Oregon actually prohibits the sale of nearly all types of water turtles. This doesn't seem to effect how many of them there are as pets as well as for sale in stores.One of my customers works for the state dept of fish and wildlife and has been in to ask about a turtle for her son. I am not good at being "bad" so I'm reluctant to order these turtles. I am also the only one in our county doing rescue work so I've had several critters that are illegal come thru the rescue end. I find rescues a good home(I don't sell a rescue) so hopefully I'm not breaking too many laws. Thanks for your advice. Is there any funds available to bail reptile lovers out of jail? lol

It might not hurt to actually post the state regulations in your store so that customers can see for themselves what is legal and what isn't. Make a little display of it, or blow up a copy of the regs and post them in the window.

Katrina

Lets not for get municiple codes. Each county, city, village, TWP ect can have a law. So although you may be able to sell and own one where you are at, your customers may not. I've been waiting for "them" to start going after pet shops, as being vicariously liable.
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1.3 Bearded Dragons
2.4 Ball Pythons,
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) MIA
Rats, Degus,
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

lets not all forget the other provisions to the FDA regulation. The second which i never hear anything about is that all sales in connection with a business are prohibited. The only thing i have to say is it is not worth the five or ten bucks to lose your business. Just look at it this way if you lose out on a few baby turtles sales now when they do come down on everyone else and you then have the petshop monopoly you will be much happier. And trust me when they come down you will be glad you are not on their hit list because they can be ruthless bastards

Sad, but mom and pop pet shops are all but dead. I always read ppl in forum ragging on "shops". Well we might be rare, a shop in biz in 1 location with the same owner and did herps and many other oddities for 40, YES 40 years. Between the web, and shows, it's very tough. I love to hear ppl at shows complain about someone coming into the shows and underselling them, well welcome to life. A retail shop has rent gas electric employees, while most show guys have a fulltime job and its side money.

Please don't get me wrong, this is no different than painting a house, and young guys in the summer do it cheap. We are in a very competative world now. I just get a kick out of a person who happens to be able to sell for less than someone else complain about the same thing.

Point is, all this competitions make a shop look for every edge. We could sell 25 baby turtles a week easy!. We don't, we don;t go out of are way to buy retic burms iguanas just to have herps to sell. We get enough left at our door. Then we keep them for a month or so to be sur they are good, then carefully offer them to people that are responsible and truley understand the long term care. We are not perfect, but I see so many shops in our are get herps and they are for sale that day, then they come to us to learn what to do.

Unless things change we will be buying all our pets at corp places and walmarts.

Sir, do not do the small turtles. Educate them, and offer other herps. I can show ppl most times a leo gecko is much better for a 10 year old. Especially when they see the bill for all the lights.

POOF

again sorry for typos, playing poker on line lol

peace people
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1.3 Bearded Dragons
2.4 Ball Pythons,
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) MIA
Rats, Degus,
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

the law read "bonafide" educational purpose. Being an ex-cop, I can tell you signing off on the releases is fraud, much like Buying fireworks in Ohio and claiming set them off else where. Now that your pissed at me. I bought fireworks, and the law STINKS. Totally outdated.

I do not think baby turtles should be sold as 90% are sold with no lights and proper instructions. But the reasoning is absurd. For god sakes a RES can not be sold in Ohio because it is an introduced species.

Our over paid worthless politicians do not understand what needs to be protected, and the easy way out is a blanket law. NOTHING FOR NO ONE.

Now to blame the people. Due to morons walking around with a 12' Burmese scaring people, releasing larger herps when they get tired of them, the legislators have cause to point fingers. BUT!, I do not agree all must suffer.

I hate to say this but maybe a tax? Ok, your pissed again. But I'd pay $25 to have a salvadorii. If something is not done soon, herps as pets will all be illegal, or close. Then in 30 years no one growing up as kids enjoying it and no one to expand our knowledge.

A forum is not a good place for me to rant on this. I just can not get all my words to fonts.

For the record I'm 46, had over 300 herps in my life up to 7'6" salvator, actually 16 monitors. A small collection now, nothing to exciting. I also work in the herp trade, part time.

This will never happen, but we need a solid herp org, with lawyers. Instead, Bob with an illegal rat snake gets busted and he rats out Fred, who turns on his friend Jim.

Again, ex-cop speaking this tactic is to move to a bigger source. Wildlife people know who they are and are working backwards for job security. Sorry, I call them as I see them. I'm honest, and I tell you as I see it.

Sorry for typos and such,

tom
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1.3 Bearded Dragons
2.4 Ball Pythons,
6 baby female Western hognose, 3.5 adults some friend some mine,,,building breeding stock)
1 Corn snake (bloodred) MIA
Rats, Degus,
2.0 Dogs,
0.2 Cats,,
0.1 Wives,
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

Especially in Va? No, I'm not in Va, but I was curious if slider shells were illegal to sell.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC