Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am living in Texas right now and am wanting to start a breeding group of Eastern Indigos. Here is my Problem. I have been going around and around with Texas parks and wildlife trying to figure out what I need in order to Keep and Breed ""EASTERN"" Indigos and non of them seem to know what the hell I am talking about.
If any of the people in here have any information about the laws on Eastern Indigos in Texas PLEASE help me out and let me know.
Any and all info would be greatly appreciated
Thank you for your time
Justin

To the best of my knowledge, and I don't live in Texas, Only Texas Indigos are regulated in Texas.

Go to the link below for information on getting permits for Eastern Indigo interstate commerce.

Doug T
Status and Permits Page

Thank you for your help. I have been around and around with parks and wildlife here.
I will read over this and get some ammo to fight this once again. Boy If it was anything but the eastern indigo I would have given up by now.
Thanks again

I once resided in the Del Valley area of Austin and recall a conversation I had with Dr. Floyd Wilson, who was a herpetologist for Texas Parks and Wildlife many years ago and has since passed away, but he informed me the state of Texas protected Drymarchon spp. at the genus level, not the species or sub-species level, which could cause trouble for anyone maintaining any members of the Dry genus, including the South American subs. Of course, things certainly change with time and such may no longer be the case. However, I do know that John Cherry quit working with D. m unicolorand a couple other Dry subs, due to complications incurred by Texas Parks and Wildlife enforcement officers.
Have you contacted both the wildlife management and enforcement divisions of Parks and wildlife to this regard?

Good luck,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Right now I live right on the border of Texas and Oklahoma so I am thinking of moving into Oklahoma in order to take care of this problem. But, What you mention is the same problem I am running into. It is amazing to me that these laws are wrote up without thought.
I understand the Texas indigo being protected in Texas but why cant they say this or that subspecies or species is protected? It all makes no since to me.
Thank you for your reply

It's actually legal to keep regulated species as long as certain requirements are met.

It does not allow for propogation of such regulated species.

So you can keep them, not breed them.

See link below.

Doug T
Texas Indigo Reg's

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 31 NATURAL RESOURCES AND CONSERVATION
PART 2 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT
CHAPTER 65 WILDLIFE
SUBCHAPTER G THREATENED AND ENDANGERED NONGAME SPECIES
RULE §65.171 General Provisions
(a) The provisions of this subchapter apply to any species of wildlife listed in this state as threatened or endangered, living or dead, including parts.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter or Parks and Wildlife Code, Chapters 67 or 68, no person may:

(1) take, possess, propagate, transport, export, sell or offer for sale, or ship any species of fish or wildlife listed by the department as endangered; or

(2) take, possess, propagate, transport, import, export, sell, or offer for sale any species of fish or wildlife listed in this subchapter as threatened.

(3) sell or propagate for sale any species of fish or wildlife listed by the department as endangered, unless that person also possesses an endangered species propagation permit.

(c) Any person may possess, transport, import, export, sell, or offer for sale goods made from fish or wildlife listed in this subchapter as threatened, provided the person possesses:

(1) a copy of an out-of-state permit authorizing the possession of the specimens in the state of origin, valid at the time the specimen enters Texas;

(2) a bill of sale identifying the source of the specimen; or

(3) a notarized affidavit stating the source of the specimen and that the specimen(s) was legally obtained.

(d) Any person may possess or transport lawfully obtained live, mounted, or preserved specimens of threatened or endangered species, including specimens acquired in another state, provided the person complies with the provisions of subsection (c)(1)-(3) of this section.

Source Note: The provisions of this §65.171 adopted to be effective November 16, 2000, 25 TexReg 11289

This page can be accessed through the www.indigosnakes.com Status and Permits page, Texas Indigo Section
Status and Permits Page

I have known more then a few folks who have attempted to garner permits in Texas, for the captive maintenance of D. m erebennus. Unfortunately, the Texas system appears to be much like the permitting system Florida has in place, regarding the captive maintenance of D. couperi, they have such a permit system in place, but actually obtaining such takes more than an act of congress. I believe such permitting systems were placed into action to allow academic and zoological entities the ability to maintain such specimens, not private keepers.
I do believe that an individual applying for such permits should continue trying, as eventually, the state would have to justify their position for not allowing capable individuals access to maintaining such specimens in captivity.
Keep in mind, there are quite a few folks in Texas keeping D. couperi and they do not appear to be having any problems, so perhaps such enforcement is an issue of the past. I would keep all records regarding the acquisition of any animals and always have a good scale chart on hand, indicating the phenotypic differences between D. couperi and D. m erebennus

Good luck,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I have Never seen a group of people try so hard to help out. I Trully appreciate everything you guys have do. This just makes me realize another reason I am wanting so bad to keep these animals becouse the people that keep this species seem to be just one step above everyone else in the Reptile hobby..
Once again. I cannot thank you enough for your help.
I will continue to fight this battle.
P.S. If there is anyone in Texas that keeps Indigos Please email me personally at J_Vipera@yahoo.com. I would love to talk with you.

your fight with TPW won't really do any good, since the eastern indigo is protected on the federal level, Texas Parks and Wildlife doesn't have any regulation over it. Your fight would really be with US Fish and Wildlife. I am not sure what their response would be, but I can tell you that the closest office to you would be in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. If it was Texas indigos that you were interested in keeping, TPW would tell you no and that would be it, but since the eastern is not a native Texas snake, there are no regulations written for it here in Texas.

The only thing the USF&W will require is the acqusition of interstate commerce permits, should you acquire an Eastern Indigo from outside the state you reside in, the federal government will have no say as to whether you may keep such specimens within the state you reside.
Keep in mind, no USF&W permits are necessary if you acquire an eastern Indigo within your state of residence or the acquisition is a bonafide gift, meaning the animals are being given to you and not purchased or bartered, even when such gifting occurs across state lines..

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Unfortunately, there appears to be a great lack of communication between the enforcement and management divisions of most state parks and wildlife entities. This, combined with the vague language contained within most wildlife legislation, leads to many different interpretations, not only by the general public, but by the folks enforcing and managing such.
I ran into the same problem with the Louisiana Game and Fish Dept., as the state herpetologist, who works within the wildlife management division, informed me that P. m ruthveni could be taken, in any number, with a basic fishing license, as the species has yet to be granted protection at any level. He went on to inform me that he, and the P. m ruthveni working group, would actually like to see more folks out looking for the species and contact them once specimens were located, as they could really use the distribution data people hunting such could provide. However, you would find yourself in quite a pickle with most any enforcement officer who found you out in the field with a bag or two full of P. m ruthveni, though finding specimens in the wild can be likened to finding a marble in a granite quarry anyhow…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Justin,
It's not Texas that concerns them but Federal. All you need permit is your federal permit to keep them in Texas. Make sure they are well documented since most Game Wardens couldn't tell the difference between Texas and Easterns!
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

You do not need a federal permit to "keep" D. couperi in any state, though some individual states may require you have a "state" permit for keeping them.
The federal permit is for transporting purchased or bartered D. couperi across state lines and are not required if you acquire D. couperi from an individual within your state of residency. Also, if the snake is a bonafide gift, you will not require federal permits at all, even if transporting across state lines is necessary.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947