Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have recently seen posts and talked to someone that mentioned something about caramel albinos having a problem with kinks can someone explain this further

Yes, that's from not outcrossing enough but you'll see more and more hets for sale which should eliminate it. Same with spiders, some have a head balance, twitch, problem. Just watch what you buy, and make sure they are sexed correctly!!!

yep, its from inbreeding. a stupid practice which money hungry breeders use.
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0.1 CB 2005 Normal Ball Python @ 24.56"/285g

Do a search you'll find the info yo need. It's not from inbreeding - if it were that simple then the normal or het offspring would also be kinked and they aren't. As a matter of fact there are some breeders that have inbred extensively because their lines have proven not to kink (or not to kink as much). No one really knows for sure why they kink - just like no one knows why spiders spin.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Irresponsible breeder makes babies from mommy and daddy. Next year breeds male offspring back to mommy, and so on and so forth. And, walla, genetic defects are introduced to gene pool via inbreeding.
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0.1 CB 2005 Normal Ball Python @ 24.56"/285g

If it were as simple as you make it sound, then why don't all the other morphs have the same problem. Do you think caramels are the only ones that are inbred.

Inbreeding is not the ROOT of the problem, it just raises the chances of it re-occuring.

Where the gene originated is open to debate for sure.

Spontaneously appeared in one animal and was passed on to its offspring? That's the theory I put most faith in.

Kinking in Caramels is right along the lines of hip displacement in purebred (ie: inbred) dogs. Certain lines have it as a result of linebreeding and some don't.

When you breed related animals to combine 'desirable genes' (ie: those responsible for pigments) you run the risk of combining 'undesirable genes'(kinks, disfigurement, etc). I think some 'classics' in herpetoculture would be the kinked caramels and one-eyed and eyeless boas. Aren't those boas something tasty, eh? eek

The funny thing, to me atleast, about the kinked Caramels is this: Breeders who post on this forum that THEIR Caramels sometimes hatch kinked, yet when they sell them on the classifieds they make NO mention of WHY they are 'getting out of the caramel project'. Shadier than an elm tree if you ask me.

I guess they tell perspective buyers when contacted about the animals? Lure me to your store with 'faulty merchandise' and you have a snowball's chance in Satan's kitchen of making a sale with me. LOL

Just my 2 pennies Cdn.

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

If the kinking ONLY shows up in homozygous Caramels than I'd say it's obvious that the gene responsible for the kinks 'attaches' itself to the gene responsible for the change in pigment that Caramels display.

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

np
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0.1 CB 2005 Normal Ball Python @ 24.56"/285g

Spider is probably the most outbred mutation on the planet. Spider males have become renowned for breeding at a young age and due to the high price of this attractive morph they have been bred to a large and diverse group normal females for generations already. At least with pastel you have a proven homozygous morph to encourage some inbreeding. The average spider might even be more outbred than the average wild caught.

Caramel is a little less clear. RDR reported that many of the imported caramels where kinked. And then you have the lack of reported kinking in the non-caramel siblings from het X het breedings. Both of those point to inbreeding not being the cause but then you have the great success reported for MKR in 2005 by crossing lines. Did outbreeding make the difference or some other change they where experimenting with?

Even if the problems turn out to be tightly connected with the actual spider and caramel mutations there is always the chance that outbreeding might stumble on a gene to compensate for the undesirable tendencies. Ironically, you might then need to use inbreeding to keep that compensatory gene in your spider or caramel project.

That happens with every single morph on the market - so they would all be prone to kinking - going by your theory also many of the ones that were imported were kinked - via mother nature not via money hungry breeder. Good try tho - its real easy to blame breeder greed.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I agree with you 100%. Its not from inbreeding. I have a Caramel with a small kink in her back and her paents were from to different lines. It has something to do with the gene. Same goes for clefts in Super Cinnamon pastels. Some lines will create a cleft when breed together others will not..

np

so if i got 1 pair of het caramels bred them together and got hets and visuals would it be smart to trade the babies out for new caramel albino blood from a different person

It's smart to do that in ANY project.

Chris
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mean people suck

A few years back I bought a het caramel male from Doug Beard and Janie Malsin. I was blown away by the beauty of their caramel male and chose this line to work with.

I bred the male to several normal females and produced some 50% poss het girls. I grew them up and then purchased an actual caramel albino male that was of the Mark Bell line so that I could diversify the bloodlines to avoid any chance of kinking. As it turned out my caramel male did not breed for me last season and as a last ditch effort I threw the original het male back to his daughters and I got 3 clutches from poss het females.

The first 2 clutches came up empty but the last clutch of 5 eggs proved out and I produced 1.1 absolutely perfect and beautiful caramel albinos.

I guess you could call this inbreeding and even so the result was positive with no kinking. Maybe some lines are more prone to it than others.

The picture is of the female.

Hope this helps.

Mark

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www.ballpython.ca

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

Mark, I've also heard that some lines kink more then others. But I've never heard just which lines those are. I only know of 4 lines, there is the NERD line, the Bell line, the Malsin line and TSK's Xanthic albino line. Are there any other lines of carmels? Also Kevins book alluded to the possibility that all lines may not even be compatible. Does anyone know what lines those are? I have yet to produce any Carmels myself, but I've been playing with some poss hets from the bell line and hope to find out more about the variations.

Mark

>>A few years back I bought a het caramel male from Doug Beard and Janie Malsin. I was blown away by the beauty of their caramel male and chose this line to work with.
>>
>>I bred the male to several normal females and produced some 50% poss het girls. I grew them up and then purchased an actual caramel albino male that was of the Mark Bell line so that I could diversify the bloodlines to avoid any chance of kinking. As it turned out my caramel male did not breed for me last season and as a last ditch effort I threw the original het male back to his daughters and I got 3 clutches from poss het females.
>>
>>The first 2 clutches came up empty but the last clutch of 5 eggs proved out and I produced 1.1 absolutely perfect and beautiful caramel albinos.
>>
>>I guess you could call this inbreeding and even so the result was positive with no kinking. Maybe some lines are more prone to it than others.
>>
>>The picture is of the female.
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Mark
>>
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>>www.ballpython.ca

Hi Mark,

I have heard of one other original line from Ernie Wagner. But I may be mistaken. As of yet I have not heard as fact that some lines are not compatible. I have also heard that Kevin is working with several of his own lines and maybe that is where his speculation comes from. Kevin would be best to answer that question.

Mark
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www.ballpython.ca

>>Hi Mark,
>>
>>I have heard of one other original line from Ernie Wagner. But I may be mistaken. As of yet I have not heard as fact that some lines are not compatible. I have also heard that Kevin is working with several of his own lines and maybe that is where his speculation comes from. Kevin would be best to answer that question.
>>
>>Mark
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>>www.ballpython.ca