Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay the male is on the left, a Mendota, CA California Kingsnake and the female is on the right a non-locale chocolate banded California Kingsnake. She laid 11 good eggs, all eleven hatched and shed. Now I know that the California Kingsnakes found around Mendota, CA are normal looking (banded) but the trio that I got from Bill Cobb (who got them from Tim Rainwater in the 1990's) are really brown with no yellow and no white and have solid brown bellies. They are dark brown and light brown with an aberrant pattern.

So.......... since I bred them together it appears that the "Mendota" is a recessive gene since all 11 babies came out normal looking with no "Mendota" influence. Comments.......?????

Also due to hatch in a few days are:
Albino High White x "Mendota"
"Mendota" x "Mendota"
"Mendota" x 50-50
And next month.. "Mendota" x Brown w/yellow stripe (Carlsbad)

So is this "Mendota" a melanistic gene?

What do we call this recessive gene (Mendota)?

I have some "Ghost" cal kings that will breed next year that I got from B.H.B. that are suppose to be proven recessive, will see for sure, and I'm not sure if the term "Ghost" is accurate.....

Also Rick Staub has some brown bellies from Davis, CA that look a lot like the "Mendota", has that proven to be recessive? If so what do we call this recessive gene?

Thanks for any input.

Kerby...

Mendota is a locale specif king from near Fresno, Calif.

Regarding the Ghosts you mentioned from BHB. The term Ghost is incorrect but it IS a proven recessive trait.
I bred them about 12 years ago, so they have been around for a while.

I was aware of the locality of Mendota, I was more asking about how these "Mendotas" look and that it might be recessive and what do we call this recessive gene?

Thanks

Kerby...

So.......... since I bred them together it appears that the "Mendota" is a recessive gene since all 11 babies came out normal looking with no "Mendota" influence. Comments.......?????

The fact that none of the babies look like the father does not necessarily imply that the trait is recessive. It could be a complex polygenic trait or may not even be heritable (it could be an incubation temp thing that happened to the father). If you breed the babies together and they produce 25% snakes like the father, then you can be pretty confident it is a single gene recessive trait.

>>So is this "Mendota" a melanistic gene?

They appear to be hypermelanistic, but it looks more complicated than that to me.

What do we call this recessive gene (Mendota)?
Also Rick Staub has some brown bellies from Davis, CA that look a lot like the "Mendota", has that proven to be recessive? If so what do we call this recessive gene?

I think it would be premature to start naming morphs from an unproven trait. It would also be worthwhile to see if the Davis and Mendota traits are the same. Maybe just a single genetic mutation. In that case, the name Davis has been used for these cal kings for over 30 years, I don't see any reason to change it.
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Chris Harrison

Chris, this is the first year that I have bred them and more clutches to hatch with the "Mendota" being used to include Mendota x Mendota. Bill Cobb who I bought this adult trio (1.2) from said that all the babies were the same as the parents. So breeding Mendota to a Mendota produces all Mendota according to Bill Cobb, I will find out shortly as that clutch is over 60 days.

All I am trying to do is to come to an consensus as to what they are; what we should call them; and if it is recessive.

Thanks for your input.

Kerby...

can't believe half the crap that came out of tims mouth.He probably bought them from somebody and just said they were mendotas cause he saw a mendota once and they kinda look alike.I have a couple davis kings here from staub and they look just like yours?

shannon

But others are advertising "Mendotas" as well and I do not have first hand info.

But whether they are Davis or Mendota is not as important. What I am trying to find out is if it is a recessive gene and WHAT DO WE CALL it? They lack all black, yellow and white, they are only brown (dark and light). So what do we call it?

I don't want there to be confusion between Mendota locale Cal Kings that are normal banded and these. I would prefer to label these with a genetic name, especially since I have plans on breeding them (have started this year) with other recessive genes.

Thanks.

Kerby...

I recently saw a 100% pure Mendota locale. There are 3 types to come out of the Mendota area 1)normal banded bright yellow and dark brown 2) abberant bright yellow and dark brown 3) nearly patternless bleached pale yellow and light brown. The 3rd phase has proven to be simple reccessive. I do not know about the 2nd phase. I do believe yours look like Davis phase although I have seen a pic of a wc king from Firebaugh about 20 miles from Mendota which looks similar to yours so you never know. I think a genetic name would be better for yours given they are from Tim but they are awesome kings. I don't know about the genetics, you will probably be the first one to sort it out and probably get some new morphs.

The Davis blackbelly trait does behave in a recessive manner though I believe there is probably more than one gene acting here. This would seem obvious as IMO it is unlikely that a single gene would be able to control both the color and pattern anomolies found in this variant. I hate to call it a morph since they are a natuaral part of the wild population and not something created through captive breeding. It would be like calling alterna a morph (sacrilege). At least for the Davis population, nobody that I have heard of has ever produced a baby that had either the color or funky pattern alone without the other. I have bred normals to blackbellies and wc carriers of the gene (kind of like hets) to blackbellies and never produced a baby with only the color or only the pattern variations. IMO this suggests that the pattern and color genes are linked very closely (next to each other on same chromosome) and therefore passed along together. The only other thing I would add is that when I bred my blackbelly male to the "het" female I always got about 75% blackbellies. My numbers weren't great enough to make it statistically significant but it kind of suggested to me that it wasn't a straight recessive gene. This same "het" female bred to a normal male produced all normal banded babies.

A friend made an interesting breeding of his blackbelly female to an albino striped Cal king and got all normal banded babies except one which was a blackbelly. Kind of weird and I don't know how to explain that one. Suggests that the genetics might be more complicated than we expect.

In Stockton, CA there is another population of blackbellies where snakes have been found with normal colors, a banded pattern on top, and an all black belly. Actually was a very cool looking snake.

A friend that has caught several populations of them suggested a hypothesis that was kind of unique. He wondered if the blackbelly morph wasn't the historic type in Calif and the populations that remain are simply remnants that remain once the normal banded pattern types arose and became the prominent type(sounds like they had armies and fought each other). The animals I have seen from Davis, Sacramento, and Mendota all look very similar and I wouldn't be surprised if they had the same genetics. If my friends idea of remnant populations is true then yes they would all be the same genetically.

As far as I know, nobody has done enough pairings to pin point the genetics for this variant. I volunteer Kerby. LOL
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Rick you said "A friend made an interesting breeding of his blackbelly female to an albino striped Cal king and got all normal banded babies except one which was a blackbelly. Kind of weird and I don't know how to explain that one. Suggests that the genetics might be more complicated than we expect. "

This sounds like two traits "linked" on the same chromesome, only this time the teleomer broke between the two loci for the different genes resulting in an animal with one trait instead of both. A back cross to one of the kings exhibiting both traits might clear up the mystery. The again.....

Bob

Sorry I should have made that clearer. The blackbelly he got from the albino cross had both the blackbelly color and pattern variations so the traits remained linked. I agree with your premise though that a breeding of an unlinked snake (displays only the color or pattern of a blackbelly) with a complete blackbelly would be helpful to determine the genetics.

>>Rick you said "A friend made an interesting breeding of his blackbelly female to an albino striped Cal king and got all normal banded babies except one which was a blackbelly. Kind of weird and I don't know how to explain that one. Suggests that the genetics might be more complicated than we expect. "
>>
>>This sounds like two traits "linked" on the same chromesome, only this time the teleomer broke between the two loci for the different genes resulting in an animal with one trait instead of both. A back cross to one of the kings exhibiting both traits might clear up the mystery. The again.....
>>
>>Bob
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

The only other thing I would add is that when I bred my blackbelly male to the "het" female I always got about 75% blackbellies..........This same "het" female bred to a normal male produced all normal banded babies.

This suggests to me that the blackbelly trait is dominant and that your male is a heterozygote (showing the dominant trait) and your female is homozygous "normal".

A friend made an interesting breeding of his blackbelly female to an albino striped Cal king and got all normal banded babies except one which was a blackbelly

Again this might support the blackbelly as dominant hypothesis. Female was a het and male was a normal for that locus.

I might point out (maybe as a red herring) that splendida also have black-bellied and checkered-bellied populations.
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Chris Harrison

A number of people have bred the Davis blackbellies to normal Cal kings and as far as I know never produced a blackbelly-looking baby. This would squash any idea that the gene(s) might be dominant. Kerby's breeding shows that also.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

thanks for the info, and lots of it

Although I have started to breed the "Mendota" into other recessive genes I really won't find out until I breed back in a few years - patience. I too thought that the aberrant pattern of the "Mendota" would have appeared right away but it didn't on the first clutch to hatch. Four more Mendota combos left.

Okay Rick, I want a pair (1.1) of your Davis cal kings this year so that I can breed them to mine and see if they are the same...... Really, I want a pair

Kerby...

Consider yourself a traditional genetic scientist. I can wait a couple years to find out what you produce. I'll ask some friends I know who have more experience breeding these kings to see if they can add to what we know.

I have eggs cooking. I just need a better ratio than last year -- 10 males 1 female - ouch!
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

i chatted with him a while back, i know he cut back on his collection. i remember him doing an article a few years back on the "davis" blackbellies- i find them fascinating.

ps- does dr. roger lui still work at berkeley? i lost touch with him after he moved?

-jon

I think Eric got rid of his when he downsized, but I will ask as I will probably see him at the NCHS meeting this Friday. I am giving a slideshow presentation of my trip to the Galapagos Islands if you are interested in coming up to Davis.

Roger got his degree last year and has left as far as I know. I need to speak with Tyrone so if you need contact info let me know.

>>i chatted with him a while back, i know he cut back on his collection. i remember him doing an article a few years back on the "davis" blackbellies- i find them fascinating.
>>
>>ps- does dr. roger lui still work at berkeley? i lost touch with him after he moved?
>>
>>-jon
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles