Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There was a discussion a while back and I don't remember who all used maternal incubation. I remember Tosha did but that's it. Who else and

1) How many clutches have you done this way?
2) Your success rate
3) Did you use a rack or something else?
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I have used maternal with one of my female Ball Pythons and all the eggs hatched compared to incubating my Burm eggs (2 large clutches from two females) in which out of one clutch of 52 eggs only 13 survived and the second of 62 eggs only 31 survided to hatching.
So for me this year I am going to use the maternal method for my clutches. There is to much that I can screw up.
Tails With Scales Reptiles

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Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

There is just too much that can go wrong by pulling the eggs. All my clutches are going maternal again this season. It just makes sense - set the correct temperature make sure the humidity is high and mom takes care of the rest.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I know we discussed this a few months back, but what exactly do you set your room conditions at? Temp, Humidity%, Substrate?

Also, how do you do cleaning for the two months?
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Because I have an enclosed rack system - I didn't change anything in the room - as a matter of fact when she laid the eggs we were in the middle of our house remodel and her rack was in the family room. I put her tub on a separate thermostat set to 89* and placed the probe next to the eggs. She laid a bit early and I had not changed her aspen out to cypress yet, but about two weeks after she laid I did the change, I didn't want the aspen molding. I was very surprised it hadn't started to mold in that time considering the humidity level (close to 100%).

This year I will be putting the whole rack on one thermostat with a back up as well as putting a seperate themostat/hygrometer on each tub. Because I stay home it's easy for me to monitor the tubs - just in case.

There really isn't any cleaning to do - they haven't eaten in a couple of months - any work that you would have to do in the tub (like when I changed out the substrate) - you can just cover mom and eggs with a towel and get it done. Jasmine wasn't too concerned with me changing out her water every couple of days and occasionally snapping pictures and candling eggs. Thats not to say another snake wouldn't be more aggressive.

Sorry for the ramble - hope this helps.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

1 - What method do you use to keep the humidity up near 100% in your closed rack system (I too use closed)?
2 - What ill effects could come from keeping a snake at 89* for that long? (if any)
3 - What ill effects could come from 100% humidity for that long? (if any)
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

>>1 - What method do you use to keep the humidity up near 100% in your closed rack system (I too use closed)?

I played with it a lot when I had the aspen in there as it didn't do a great job of holding the humidity. Aside from spraying the cage, I replaced her regular water bowl with a large ceramic pie plate and ran a strip of 3" heat tape under that portion of the tub (outside the tub) I then placed the heat tape on a cheapy thermostat that would click it on and off during the day and raise up the humidity - it was just an experiment on how to raise humidity without disturbing her and worked really well. When I switched over to cypress, I put it in wet and that seemed to be all that was needed - it kept the tub at a good humidity level with only minor spraying needed.

>>2 - What ill effects could come from keeping a snake at 89* for that long? (if any)

I keep my balls hot end at around 89* year around - so it's pretty much what they are accustomed too anyway. There still should be a thermogradient in the tub so if she wants to move away for a bit she can.

>>3 - What ill effects could come from 100% humidity for that long? (if any)

I was concerned about possible scale rot or possible RI but there were no issues at all.

I after the adventure - I had discussed with Rick at Ball Boutique how he worked his maternal incubation - and found most of what I did to be overkill - first clutch and all I overcompensated quite a bit. You might want to check with him also to see how he does it.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

np
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

What exactly is going wrong when you pull eggs?

I've only bred BP's for 3 years (13 clutches)and I've never had a problem with using an incubator. I set my helix for 89F, I use a substrateless egg box and I cover the rubbermaid with glass. I've had a 100% hatch since the start and can't see any advantage of letting the mother do it. Your female has already been off food for a while, why would you want it to be off food for another 2 months?

Ron

There is nothing wrong with removing eggs - there is just more things that can go wrong with an incubator than if mom sits on them - you could have temp problems, you can have humidity problems, air circulation problems, accidents, etc. etc. these are all things that the mother would naturally compensate for.

As for this big issue about it being stressfull on the mom - studies show other wise - Aubret, F., Bonnet, X., Shine, R. and Maumelat, S. 2005. Energy expenditure for parental care may be trivial for brooding pythons, Python regius - interesting reading. On top of that my female was off feed for a total of 5 months (my females I'm breeding now are still feeding) - no different than any other snake that goes off feed for the winter - her total weight loss was around 20 grams.

There is also another study that shows that maternally incubated hatchlings hatch bigger and stronger than artifically incubated eggs - due to less desiccation and higher yolk consumption by the embryo. Gotta see if I can find that article - vaguely recall the details.

I am certainly not an advocate for maternal incubation or anti-incubator - nor do I really think one is "better" than the other - I think for the most part it's a control issue for most people.

But I've been known to be wrong before tho.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

>
>>There is also another study that shows that maternally incubated hatchlings hatch bigger and stronger than artifically incubated eggs - due to less desiccation and higher yolk consumption by the embryo. Gotta see if I can find that article - vaguely recall the details.

I just read that article. It is also by Aubret, Bonnet, Shine and Maumelat (2005) Why do female ball pythons coil so tightly around their eggs? Evolutionary Ecology Research 7:743-758. In a nutshell, they caught 30 gravid females in Togo and assigned them to 3 groups = 0, 15 or 60 days of maternal incubation. They found that maternally incubated eggs produced larger, more active and faster growing neonates than those that were not maternally incubated. One of the more interesting findings is that the advantages of maternal incubation were not primarily caused by temperature since temperature was controlled in all 3 groups. Instead in appeared to be hydration effects -- maternally incubated eggs lost less water and had less yolk coagulation and dessication.

Anyway, it's a really cool article.

Is this a different article than the one published in 2002 or a re-hash? From a quick look, it looks the same. The original was called :

Clutch size manipulation, hatching success and offspring phenotype in the ball python (Python regius) Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2003,78, 263–272.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

>>Is this a different article than the one published in 2002 or a re-hash? From a quick look, it looks the same. The original was called :
>>
>>Clutch size manipulation, hatching success and offspring phenotype in the ball python (Python regius) Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2003,78, 263–272.
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>>Jay A. Martin
>>Jay Martin Reptiles

That one was on manipulating clutch size and its effects on the hatchlings. This one is on maternal incubation and its effects on the hatchlings. They mention in the current 2005 article that it's the third in a series of related papers examining effects of various parental and environmental factors on offspring phenotype.
Ophidiophile Farms

Thermostats are not full proof.... Ask the many breeders here on kingsnake how many thousands of dollars of Ball morphs they have lost to faulty thermostats. The problem with most thermostats are that they use points and when they fry, They weld the circuit so it is constantly on.... Equals dead snake or dead eggs.

Mom has control over heat and eggs 24/7. Why not feal safe that she is gaurding the eggs day and night... I sleep better knowing that.

Mike King
MK Reptiles
www.mkreptiles.com

is in? Couldn't that fail just as well.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I have mine backed up with a second that will shut the tape off if it reaches 91 degrees. So even if I don't catch it the tape will shut off - from there mom is able to take care of the eggs until problem can be fixed - it wouldn't be an issues even if I didn't catch if for a couple of days. Even if you back up an incubator - if your heat tape shuts off while you are at work or don't see it then your eggs only have so long until problems can happen. Of course if you're like the Southernlands and have your incubator page you when the temperature fluxuates it might not be such a problem.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

If you used a Johnson Controller you would never hit a high temp. They do not use points and hence can not get welded upon. They shut off if temps are read above your set point. This is not a problem if you have good husbandry skills. Python eggs hatch out fine at room temperatures that are above 78 degrees. I am not sure about below that because I have not personally tried those temps yet.

I have hatched out ball pythons at a room temp of a low of 78 and up to 85. I never incubate at those higher temps that you all love so much. You are incubating at the extreme end of the temperature range for eggs.

I do ocasionally have a mother that does not take care of the eggs. So, I do have an incubator. I use 75 gallon fish tank with visi-therm heaters set at 84. Air temp inside runs just around 82.9 - 83.5....give or take a few tenths. All eggs hatch out at 68-72 days and average about 75-80 grams. I have never lost a viable egg due to these temps . They all hatch out fine.

Mike

Mike,
How many clutches have you done like this? I've actualy wondered this myself, b/c I can't imagine that temps stay in this exact 5 degree range for the ENTIRE breeding season in the wild. But why is it that EVERYONE says 87-92 degrees?
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

How exactly is mom controlling the temps of the eggs? Yes, I realize moms can mediate temps a bit but nothing extreme - can they?

I know in some python species moms shiver to keep the eggs warm (not sure about balls), but that would not work in the event of an extreme temp drop, would it?

How will she save the eggs if your thermostat fries? Seems to me she'd just die with them in that situation.

I feel like we are all depending on a mechanical heat source anyway - so what dif does it make if mom is on them or not?

Enlighten me .

Christy

I personally have never tried it but Rick Denmon(ball boutique) has been an advocate for years now.

TomChambers

n/p
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

1) How many clutches have you done this way?

Only been brave enough to try it once, might again this year.

2) Your success rate

100%

3) Did you use a rack or something else?

Rack

Hi all,

Some questions I have after reading the posts....

1) What exactly does mom do to 'take care' of the eggs? With or without mom, we have to provide the right temps and humidity, don't we? What are the things that can go wrong without mom that can't go wrong with mom? If temps get too hot/cold over a long period, mom can't do anything about that - you loose the eggs either way. If temps only change for a few hours it won't matter either way. If it gets to dry, or the eggs are too wet and get moldy, mom can't fix that either (yes, I know she can provide some humidity through her excretions, but you still have to keep the eggs very humid either way). No matter how you look at it you are at the mercy of your thermostat.

2) Let's hear from people who raised females up from babies and used MI with them. What is the average clutch size these girls produce over 4-5 years. Do MI girls tend to lay as big of clutches as often? Or, do they bounce back slower and grow slower due to not having as much feeding time in between breeding seasons? Do they skip more years than girls whose eggs are incubated?

I see nothing wrong with MI - I have never done it, but it does sound kind of cool. However, I want my girls eating again ASAP. If that's not a concern, then I'd say go for it. I do think that long haul for breeders who would like to produce a nice quantity of animals, there might be some issues.

The question for me isn't whether the eggs will survive, I'm sure they will (of course they survive just as well in an incubator) - but what does it do to production and female weight gain long term.

Let's hear clutch sizes from long term MI'ers. (More than three years running with a female you raise yourself, not a girl that already started out as a "cow."

Christy

2) Let's hear from people who raised females up from babies and used MI with them. What is the average clutch size these girls produce over 4-5 years. Do MI girls tend to lay as big of clutches as often? Or, do they bounce back slower and grow slower due to not having as much feeding time in between breeding seasons? Do they skip more years than girls whose eggs are incubated?

My theory is it is the genetics of the animal. Clutch size, shed issues, eating habits, temperament, on and on.
My axanthic het female has produce each year for the last three and clutch size 5,7,8 in 2005. Others are not as strong. But I do believe that this would happen without MI. My het pied female produced 4,5,0,0,3. It is like I said before genetics. Like saying when a female can produce. Age? Gram weight? Depends on the animal period. Just like humans we all are similar and different. Ever hear "Spiders are chow hounds." Tell that to one of my forced fed female baby I produced this year. All the other three are little pigs.....why? I am sure she will take off ~ just when who knows. The normals in the clutch are pigs. Why? Genetics! More than the genetics in color.
Why have I not produced one egg from a pair of het 2000 caramel albinos? A pair of 1997 het pieds never produced a pied! Why?
My animals are offered what ever they will eat.
To me breeding ball pythons is like poker depends on how you are dealt from the deck. LOL

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RicK @ BbI

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