Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, I wanted to make sure everyone that posted on my first question about petstores got the thanks, so I reposted this.

Jason
I have been scouting store locations, and I am actually about to meet my Dad for lunch now and then go look at a few places, get his opinion. We dont want a place that is wedged in between a nail salon and a book store in a tiny strip center, at the same time, prime location will have a prime cost... Thankfully, the area that I live in is expanding every day (Northwest Houston for you texans out there), so hopefully we can play into that. Breeding mice and rats is a must for me, on so many levels, all of which you mentioned. The field trip idea is great, exactly something that I had pictured. An opportunity for people to come in and learn, and to have a great time. I would very much like to see this store as being a fun atmopshere, as opposed to a supermarket like pet store. Customer service, well, simply put, you took the words out of my mouth. Thanks again Jason for your advice, and hey, best of luck to you in the future for your own store!

Smooth,
Yeah, sadly I do not know as much about fish, salt or fresh, as I would like. Thankfully, one of my old roommates is a marine bio major, so I have contacted him about helping me. A lot of the research that I have done indicates that fish seem to do very well, cheap freshwater sells often, and salt sells less often, but when it does, its at a good price.

Bill,
Haha, it seemed long in comparison I guess, but it was the only way to make my idea clear and understandable. To be completely honest, it makes me feel good about my idea when you and other people have said that there are stores near them that are similar to what I would like to do. I will keep in mind those items that you mentioned, being a herp fan first, and then all the other animals, I have a feeling that that end of the spectrum will be covered!

Panhead,
Regarding the puppymills, you know, I keep tossing that around, and it has come up in discussion many times. The cold hard facts are, people want puppies and kittens. We are currently looking for good local breeders, and doing our research to see if there is a safe alternative to puppy mills, some where in the middle of the spectrum. Regarding space and zoo comment, both all true and valid point, and thats why I posted this on here, I would love for someone to point out what I am missing. These comments will be noted, and I guess it really comes down to, what kind of place we get, and what we can work with. And finally, long hours are okay with me . I am actually working right now in a graphic design business that was started by my buddy and his cousin. Well, I help take on projects when they get busy. But the point is, I have seen how when starting a business, its best to sit at first, and reinvest into the store. This has proven to work out well in this particular situation, now will that be the same for a pet store, I dont know, but I think going in from the start, not expecting to get rich from day one will put us at an advantage. Thanks for you advice the business aspects, and HUGE CONGRATS on your success! Here is a another 27 years (lifts his glass)!!!

Morphed,
Thanks, thats a great real life example of what I had rolling around in the back of my head! Maybe I need to make a trip to new england (would that count as a write off?! haha). I very much so like the idea of a two tier pet store, and that makes a lot of sence to me, thanks again!

To all who responded,
Thanks for letting me pick your brains guys, and Im not gonna lie, this may not be the last time I post on this, if nothing else than to update everyone! This is why I posted here, I knew I would get INTELLIGENT responses from a community of individuals that I KNOW I can trust. Please know that your suggestions and comments weigh heavy, and myself and my family sincerly appreciate everyones help. Take care,

~Johnny

Have you thought about working with the local humane society for this? Honestly, its not the puppies and kittens that will make you the money, because by the time you get shots, dewormer, and the antibiotics to cure the kennel cough epidemic, its more of a pain in the ass than its worth. Its the crates, food, treats and toys that will make you the big bucks, and having someone else mess with the "herd health" will do both you, and your humane society a big favor...

just a thought.

Yes, actually working with our local animal shelter was our first idea on sources for puppies and kittens. Yeah, the majority of sales in a pet shop, are not from pets.. supplies are the money makers. Right now, its a process of finding the shelters to work with, and maybe a few breeders to bring in pups or kittens. We are really trying to look at every possible angle on this one, and its a tough call.

~Johnny

it would be great if you had a thing like what Petco does. Every weekend have the local rescues bring in some dogs and cats, and let the public talk to them and adopt through them.

this will not get you any money in sales however. i dont think the rescues give you a high percentage, if any, from adoption fees. this would be totally a good samaritan act. but it WOULD bring in customers every saturday to see the animals for adoption and possibly buy things while they are there

but seriously. do NOT buy puppies or kittens for resale. *thumbs down*

Actually I worked in a petstore for 2yrs. I more then worked there, I did all the ordering, and closing plus inventory. I can tell you from first hand experience, the puppies are what bring in the money. Cheaper puppies were in the $300 range and the most expensive went upward of $1000. Now when you have 30 puppies at a time (food, shots, health supplies are all purchased much cheaper then available to public) and you sell out of them in 7-14 days then you do the math. The cost of keeping them for even a month wouldnt come anywhere close to the price they were selling for. And this petstore was in a terrible location, in an alley behind a building, and not much advertising. So moral to the story, I have been throwing the idea around of opening a store myself, and I dont think it would be smart to open one without selling puppies. Just get your local paper in Houston and look for local dog breeders selling puppies and buy their whole litters at a time, that way you can check out the environment they are raised in, and even look at the parents (and I know there are a lot of dog breeders in Harris county, cause I am originally from Houston myself!)
hope this ramble helps a little
Will Wohlers

yeah who cares what idiots buy the puppies so long as you are making a profit right

these are NOT SNAKES OR FROGS OR HERMIT CRABS. you cannot stick a puppy in a tank and throw it food once a week. it is a much much bigger commitment than a reptile and NO ONE who wants to hand over the cash and get handed a puppy no questions asked, should own one. under any circumstances

DONT DO IT!

While dogs and cats require a much larger time commitment than snakes do, caring for them isn't as much of a science as caring for a snake is. Because dogs and cats are fellow mammals, we have a more intuitive feel for what they need. Furthermore, most of us have had a dog or cat as a kid and know others who have them. The knowledge of their needs is more widely known, and we can generally get a feel for how to keep one alive and healthy by looking around the neighborhood at the healthy animals living on our street. (Personally, I wouldn't mind if the one next door were considerably less healthy.) The average person walking off the street probably has a reasonably good idea how to keep a dog or cat. Every vet in the country is trained in the care of these animals. Every grocery store sells food for these animals. Dog obedience classes are readily available in most places. I don't buy the assertion that the average person walking into a pet store is incompetent to buy a dog or cat on that day.

Most of us have heard bad things about pet stores selling dogs and cats. My first inclination if I wanted one of these animals wouldn't be to get one from a pet store. However, if I visited a pet store and saw that those running the place were responsible, intelligent people; if they could assure me that they were getting their animals from good breeders; if conditions didn't look like a breeding ground for disease; I'd consider buying from that store. Buying from someone I know or from a friend of a friend always seems better, but I've often found myself in a new state after moving. I know how hard it is to re-establish contacts. Finding that network that would get me to the right breeder could take a long time. If I had the right place for a dog and wanted one immediately, there's nothing wrong with bypassing those delays.

There will always be irresponsible people who will do irresponsible things. If they are forced to go to a local breeder and learn a little dog jargon before getting their dog, they'll still go home as irresponsible dog owners. I know that many people think that we can institute controls to keep people from doing things that we don't like, but those controls never work. People will be people. Most will be pretty good. A few will be really bad. A few others will mean well but do stupid things. We can't protect ourselves, our society, or the world's animals from all of them.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

*sigh* i suppose if you arent "in" the dog world I really cant explain it to you

Someone who does their homework, who reads the books, who talks to breeders, vets, other owners, goes to shows to see breeding quality specimens of their chosen breed, etc. Someone who DOES all that, and is READY for their dog (because let me tell you. very very few breeds are without quirks and GINORMOUS energy requirements. and NONE require no training), someone who does all that, is NOT going to saunter down to the local Ye Olde Puppy Shoppe and pick up a puppy in the window. Only paris hilton wannabes or idiots who dont know any better and dont want to know any better, are going to seek a pet store first.

NO ONE who health tests their stock and selects for things the breed in question SHOULD have (as far as temperment) will sell puppies to you for resale. only puppymills will sell to you. puppymills forge papers. puppymills breed (bleep)es back to back to back until they die from it. puppymills even breed mutts and dont care. puppymills have no idea the quality, genetic health, or temperment of their dogs they shove together in hopes of puppies, and THEY DONT CARE.

THAT is why people who do their homework and are good responsible owners will never ever buy from a pet store. they want a guarantee. they want health testing for several generations. they want a (insert breed here) thats going to freaking ACT like a (insert breed here). they dont want a cute puppy that comes home and cannot be potty trained (because they have been forced to live in their own **** until they no longer care), has demodex mange that costs thousands to fix (bad breeding), shyness and aggression issues (from being taken from momma at 5 weeks old), and that grows up into a nasty aggressive POS adult that drops dead from heart failure at 2 years old and had crippling hip dysplatia from 8 months old

i have no idea if iv gotten the point across to you... i understand why, comming from reptiles, you have no idea why this is such a bad idea.... i can only hope to explain it in a way that makes understand

selling dogs and cats in a pet store is one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas. just take it from me. Im in dogs, and rescue, and show/AKC and breeding. I see it. I know it. Its WRONG.

"Sigh" I suppose that if you can't see outside your own world, you can't see that not everything has to fit your world to work fine for everyone involved.

First, we're not talking about a "mega-store" selling puppies by the thousands. We're talking about someone that we know from these boards and have every reason to believe is a conscientious pet owner. We're talking about whether someone who cares about animals is capable of creating conditions in a pet store where Mr and Mrs Average American can buy a dog for the family. I see no reason to believe that someone who cares about what he is doing cannot find dogs to sell to the general public in a way that is good for the dog and good for the future owners. He'll have to learn whom he can trust to have puppies that have been treated properly. He won't be able to sell the volume that the mega-stores sell. Some of his customers won't notice that he's doing things right. Others will notice and will trade with him specifically because he's doing things well. A conscientious person should be able to buy and sell in a way that is good for everyone involved. Your ranting about the "puppy mills" is irrelevant to this question.

Secondly, there's a whole world of happy people and happy dogs that aren't living as the aficionados of the dog world would like to decree. The fact that these dogs don't conform exactly to what the "dog world" thinks a certain dog should be doesn't make these owners or their dogs any less happy or healthy. The fact that these dogs don't have the right "papers" is irrelevant to the owners and their dogs. Those inside the organized "dog world" may look on these people with contempt, but their contempt doesn't make these people wrong.

Buying and selling dogs or cats from a pet store is not inherently wrong. If someone wants to sell puppies in a conscientious way from a pet store, he's not doing anything wrong. The fact that his customers will not become a part of the "dog world" is irrelevant. Those people are not doing anything wrong by buying from a reputable pet store.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

you just dont get it do you

mr and mrs average american are (bleep)ty dog owners. they feed science diet because their vet says to. they leave their dog out in the backyard all day. they smack the dog with a rolled up newspaper when its bad.

NO ONE who has done their homework regarding a dog or breed of dog, WILL EVER buy from a pet store. because pet stores are horrible places to buy dogs and they want a healthy well mannered puppy with a good start in life. which they will only get from a good breeder or good rescue

NO good breeder or good rescue is going to sell to a shop for resale. no one who gives half a flying **** about the dogs or cats they breed will sell to a store for resale. the only people who will are people are in it for the money and are breeding any old dog to any old dog.

how can a pet store screen buyers? how can you make sure they will keep the dog its whole life and give it a good home? you CANT. all you can do is take the money and hand over a puppy. Anybody who wants to get a dog in this manner, no pesky questions asked, no home checks, no interview, no waiting list, definitely is not in it for the long haul, has NOT done any research what so ever, and is basically making an inpulse purchase without even thinking if they need a dog. anyone who doesnt know or doesnt care about such things as genetic health and temperment, is going to be attracted to pet stores with dogs. is that the kind of person you want to hand an innocent puppy over to?

i cant even believe im having to explain the basic principles of responsible ownership and research vs idiot out getting an impulse puppy

i suppose you think giving puppies and kittens as christmas gifts is totally OK too

would you hand a viper to someone with the money, no questions asked?

You can't accept the fact that something can be okay if it isn't done your way. That's sad, and I hope you get over it someday.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

The cons to selling pet store puppies:

1. Impulse buys. Typically petstore puppies are bought by people who have more money (or credit) than sense. Obviously sir, by your signature, you care greatly about the welfare of snakes. Do you also care about the welfare of mammals? Especially mammals with high intelligence and social needs such as dogs? Simply because someone can monetarily afford a dog doesn't mean they can in the long run, nor does it mean they have the knowledge to properly care for a dog (or kitten.)

2. Care. i've seen more petstore puppies with worms and behavioral problems than i can bother to count. While the puppies may not stay there for very long, if the dog has worms, and gives worms to the dog in their new home the storeowner can be held liable monetarily. And if someone buys a puppy with behavioral problems, there is a chance the store owner can be held liable for behaviorist bills. Many states have "Lemon Laws" regarding puppies, leaving no way for the petstore owner to avoid such liability bills.

3. Can't say no. If someone comes in and is clearly a bad home for a puppy, the store cannot legally refuse a sale to that person. Just because someone has 300 dollars doesn't mean they are the best home for ANY pet.

So, in my opinion...simply because people in the world CAN do these things (selling puppies or buying puppies from petstores) doesn't mean they should. It doesn't mean it's in the best interest of the dog or cat, which it's not.

So, if selling a dog or cat at a petstore isn't in the best interest of that animal, why is it being done? Simply for profit?

If profit is the name of the game, then yes....by all means that person should sell dogs and cats. But they shouldn't be surprised if they end up shelling out a LOT of liablity payments for their impulse sales.

1. I care about the welfare of any animal that I control. I want to do what's best for them. However, I don't pretend that I can control what everyone else in the world does. I don't pretend that I can enact some set of standards that will lead towards every puppy, kitten, snake, or any other animal getting a good home. People who believe that they can exercise that kind of control are deluded. Peopple who still try to exercise that kind of control are dangerous. There's a point where we have to recognize that we can't prevent every tragedy.

2. It's unfortunate that we have so many laws that allow so many lawyers to become involved in everything. Maybe if people didn't run around thinking that laws and lawsuits would solve everything, they would start thinking about how to be responsible for their own actions. If people worried more about doing right in their own actions and less about trying to control others, we'd have a better society all around.

3. Maybe we should repeal those laws that say that store owners can't refuse service to a customer that they deem unfit. Market economies are supposed to work on the principle that both buyer and seller are free to refuse a transaction. If we'd go back to those principles, then store owners could make that refusal when they thought that someone wasn't ready to care for a pet properly.

In this area, many stores make people sign a paper when buying mice that they won't feed the mice to a pet snake. If the stores can make people sign that paper for a mouse, then they should be able to make people sign a paper for a puppy or kitten. Personally, I think those kinds of papers are worthless, but they argue somewhat against your assertion that the store can't refuse to sell to an unfit owner. A pet store can set some conditions. People can lie to get around those conditions, but if you're dealing with people who will lie to get the dog that they want, then they will lie to a private breeder as well.

There are good people who buy dogs at local pet stores. They may not do everything exactly as the local dog club fanatics want them to do, but they keep their dogs healthy and happy. The notion that they should be denied a chance to get a dog because they don't join the local dog club and learn the secret handshake is nonsense.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

When I was a kid, my family purchased a bloodhound from a local pet store. Now, it may not have been the most "standard fitting" dog that we had. She probably wouldnt have gotten very far in any AKC show or anything of the sort, but she lived to be eleven years old, and died of a very natural cause. She was a good dog, and in turn, we treated her well and she was as healthy as she ever could have been. This in itself is a proven fact that not EVERYONE who goes to a petstore is impulsive and irresonsible.

Yes, there will be those people that are buying impulsively, but people buy impulsively from shelters also. It's inevitable to stop irresponsible customers, because there are so many of them out there. Current laws make it tough for pet stores to regulate who they are selling to.

Sorry if today's petstore puppies are "tainting" the bloodlines of your pure bred dogs, but a lot of people dont care about how pure their dog is, as long as it's a good dog. For them, its more about the companionship a dog offers, rather than how pretty it is. Maybe that shows MORE compassion for the animal. Ever thought of it that way?

At any rate, the selling of pet store puppies is never going to stop. The most we can all do is support a more humane way of selling these puppies (no puppy mills, thorough vet checks,puppies from shelters etc.)

Molly

selling dogs and cats in a pet store is one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas. just take it from me. Im in dogs, and rescue, and show/AKC and breeding. I see it. I know it. Its WRONG.

Ya know..I can agree to the selling of cats and dogs and some other types of pets in stores. Should not happen.

But uh...your in dogs? LOL..since when does buying a dog you KNOW is a mutt and signing a stud contract on him with the breeder who you KNOW falsifies registration papers considered being "in" dogs? You picked ONE dog up off the street and tried to find it a home...hardly considered rescue. You have a mix breed...since when does AKC allow mix breeds to show? Lastly...I really hope you are not breeding.

i dont know what your original posting was, but yes. people do want puppies and kittens. but if you value animals at all do NOT buy from breeders (no breeder worth anything more than a speck of poop will sell to you for resale in a store) and then sell them to anyone with the money

this is a disaster waiting to happen. people who buy dogs or cats in pet stores have not done their homework and are NOT ready for a dog or cat, and 99.99999999% of the time, guess what happens to the innocent animal? imagine the worst and thats sometimes. triple it and thats typical. the lucky ones end up in animal control somewhere and hopefully find better homes. the rest are either dumped to "fend for themselves" or go to a shelter and rot in a cage for 48 hours and then are killed. NO ONE looking for a dog or cat in a pet store should have one. NEVER. people who are ready, have done their research, have the time and money and knowledge for a pet, go to a breeder or rescue.

BAD IDEA BIG TIME DUDE. DONT DO IT!

Johnny,

If you open a store in Northwest Houston, please let me know. I go to Houston a couple of times a year for work. I usually stay at the Drury Inn on I-10 and Hwy 6. The meetings that I attend are held on Hwy 6 just south of Westheimer. I used to live at Westheimer and Dairy-Ashford. If you are open until six or seven in the evening, I could probably come to see your setup.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Not gonna lie, this is the last thing I was worried was gonna happen here. This b.s. about puppy mills back and forth crap, gotta stop. Before you start ranting on me, and slamming me, read my posts, look at what I said.

Quote from post "...Yes, actually working with our local animal shelter was our first idea on sources for puppies and kittens. Yeah, the majority of sales in a pet shop, are not from pets.. supplies are the money makers. Right now, its a process of finding the shelters to work with, and maybe a few breeders to bring in pups or kittens. We are really trying to look at every possible angle on this one, and its a tough call."

Now, before you start slamming me, telling me to not do it, dont do puppy mills, they are so bad, go back, read the post... I said here we are looking into (did you see where it said MAYBE) some alternatives to puppy mills, but our main source of dogs and cats would be animal shelters. Its true, there are opposite views on this subject, some extreme one way, some extreme the other, but most moderate in the middle. You know what I dont give a &%#! That is why I chose to do an adoption puppy service, so I dont have to get mixed in all that crap... You can get boycotted or sued for your puppy milled/breeder/whateverothersource puppies, but not for adopting them. That sounds like a good deal to me.

Moral of the post, think before you speak.

Bill, again, thanks, you see my side of the story, and I appreciate that!! We are looking on the northwest side of Houston (spring area), and actually, im about to head out now to go look at property. I will keep you informed when the details start going through.

~Johnny

johnny opening up your store for the local rescues to bring in adoptable animals is a fabulous idea, and i said so. what bill was referring to, and defending, was NOT allowing rescues to bring in their own animals, but rather buying puppies for resale. which apparently he has no problem with and doesnt think anyone should. THAT is what gets under "dog-peoples" skin

Thanks and point taken! This is why I posted, b/c I was confident that I would get both sides of the story, and ideas I had not thought of. Thank you very much for your advice, and I will keep everyone updated of whats going on, I actually about to go look at locations again for the 3rd time (and im sure many many more to come)...

~Johnny

thread moved from ball python forum
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PHWyvern