Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 2 Leopard tortoises one I purchased from a tortoise dealer and that one is 3 years old healthy and strong with a beautifull shell we have had him since he was a month old.
My other leopard is 9 months old we purchased him through a pet store the babys shell is extremly soft to the point I am afraid to pick it up. And now I have noticed that by its rear leg there is a fracture in its shell. I have taken the baby to the vet within the past 2 months in hopes with help with the shell problems. The local vet just sugested calcium powder and spray to be added to its diet. I have already benn doing that from the very beginning. I did up untill today have the baby on calcium sand bedding. After noticing the shell fracture I removed that and replaced with clean linnen towels. The tortoise has a UV bulb and fed on a diet of dandy lions, yard grass, endive, calantro,yams, collard greens, carrot shreads, spiniage, brocoli. With the suplimental calcium spray and powder. The baby has a dish full of distiled water avalible at all times and soaks regulary. A hid spot is avaliable at all times and a temprature of arround 95 is maintaned. the older and younger tortoises are not housed together because of size difference. I put some peroxide on the shell fracture in hopes to keep an infection from hapening. Please if you have any sugestions that could help the baby I would relly like them my email is Gwendline@msn.com Thank you for any help you might be able to give me

Gwendline

Long term use of peroxide can actually prevent healing and new cells forming where you wan them to. I would use chlorhexidine solution that is often sold under the brand name Dermcleanse. Let the area dry completely. Make sure the calcium sup. has D3. Try and get him under direct real sunlight if and when at all possible. It is too cold up here where I am, but hopefully it is warmer where you are.

You might want to change the diet a little bit.

I noticed you listed several items that are considered high in a substance called oxalic acid or calcium oxalate. This substance binds with calcium and the body cannot absorb it. While there is one reptile that I know of that consumes high oxalic acid foods without harm (the monkey skink), I don't know that tortoises can do so.

Here's a list of some oxalic acid content(also referred to as calcium oxalates) in plant foods:

www.anapsid.org/iguana/cal_ox.html

You can use these foods, but not as a major part of the diet.

I have two small leopards and give them some carrot from time to time, and a little bit of collard greens, but I generally avoid spinach, almost never use any broccoli, never any parsley, etc.

I try to give them more grass, timothy hay, clover, dandelion, endive, plantain (yard weed - not the banana-like fruit), and other weeds from my backyard. They also like cactus pad when I can get it. I use a small amount of Pretty Pets tortoise pellets. It's a good item to mix in with chopped and soaked timothy hay. I also sprinkle calcium/d3 powder on the greens and weeds. I don't sprinkle the pellets since they already have vitamins and minerals added. I try to keep the pellets to less than 25% of the diet. When the yard is green and full of clover and weeds I cut way down on the pellets.

You'll find that the tortoise's feces will be less messy if you use more grass/hay/weeds than grocery greens and vegetables.

While oxalic acid is present in many (maybe all) plant items, it might be best to reduce the amount in your tortoise's diet until he gets over the soft shell problem.

good luck and a quick recovery for your little leopard!

Hi Brad,

The way I understand it Oxalic acid will bind with available calcium but will not take calcium from the bodys resources such as bone.

Calcium oalate has no effect at all because the calcium is already bound and it is pretty insoluable. It is just passed as solid waste.

>>You might want to change the diet a little bit.
>>
>>I noticed you listed several items that are considered high in a substance called oxalic acid or calcium oxalate. This substance binds with calcium and the body cannot absorb it. While there is one reptile that I know of that consumes high oxalic acid foods without harm (the monkey skink), I don't know that tortoises can do so.
>>
>>Here's a list of some oxalic acid content(also referred to as calcium oxalates) in plant foods:
>>
>>www.anapsid.org/iguana/cal_ox.html
>>
>>You can use these foods, but not as a major part of the diet.
>>
>>I have two small leopards and give them some carrot from time to time, and a little bit of collard greens, but I generally avoid spinach, almost never use any broccoli, never any parsley, etc.
>>
>>I try to give them more grass, timothy hay, clover, dandelion, endive, plantain (yard weed - not the banana-like fruit), and other weeds from my backyard. They also like cactus pad when I can get it. I use a small amount of Pretty Pets tortoise pellets. It's a good item to mix in with chopped and soaked timothy hay. I also sprinkle calcium/d3 powder on the greens and weeds. I don't sprinkle the pellets since they already have vitamins and minerals added. I try to keep the pellets to less than 25% of the diet. When the yard is green and full of clover and weeds I cut way down on the pellets.
>>
>>You'll find that the tortoise's feces will be less messy if you use more grass/hay/weeds than grocery greens and vegetables.
>>
>>While oxalic acid is present in many (maybe all) plant items, it might be best to reduce the amount in your tortoise's diet until he gets over the soft shell problem.
>>
>>good luck and a quick recovery for your little leopard!
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

EJ said:

Hi Brad,

Calcium oalate has no effect at all because the calcium is already bound and it is pretty insoluable. It is just passed as solid waste.

That's my understanding too. I just thought if the tort is suffering from a potential calcium-related problem, it would be best to reduce intake of substances that interfere with calcium absorption. And eventually the body will start extracting calcium from the bones if their is insufficient dietary calcium, correct?

I referred to it as oxalic acid / oxalates since the terms are sometimes interchanged.

That's what I was trying to clarify and I just used your post to do so. I only recently delved into the topic because something someone pointed out on another list which pertained to Opuntia cactus which is high in calcium oxalate (not a bad thing).

I thought I'd point this out here because the terms are used interchangeably and they are not the same thing. One has a harmful potential and one does not.

I believe Calcium oxalate aka Oxalates, the salt, is not harmful because it is in it's final/ solid/ crystal form.

Oxalic acid can be harmful because it readily binds with free calcium to form the salt Calcium oxalate.

I think that's an important point which I've only been recently made aware of.

>>EJ said:
>>
>>Hi Brad,
>>
>>The way I understand it Oxalic acid will bind with available calcium but will not take calcium from the bodys resources such as bone.
>>
>>Calcium oalate has no effect at all because the calcium is already bound and it is pretty insoluable. It is just passed as solid waste.
>>
>>That's my understanding too. I just thought if the tort is suffering from a potential calcium-related problem, it would be best to reduce intake of substances that interfere with calcium absorption. And eventually the body will start extracting calcium from the bones if their is insufficient dietary calcium, correct?
>>
>>I referred to it as oxalic acid / oxalates since the terms are sometimes interchanged.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I was assuming also that calcium oxalate is harmless. Just the byproduct of oxalic acid interacting with calcium in the gut.

But then I started to dig around on the web a little. Trouble is I've never had a chemistry course, so I'm not qualified to sort these things out, but I kept coming across sources that said calcium oxalate is the most common source of kidney stones in humans, and that is it is found in some poisonous plants like dumbcane.

Wikipedia, while not a good final resource, summarizes the info I found elsewhere:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxalate

Also on oxalic acid:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

So it seems that calcium oxalates may be a by product and poison (see the link to dumb cane in the oxalate article.)

My statement:

I was assuming also that calcium oxalate is harmless. Just the byproduct of oxalic acid interacting with calcium in the gut.

Should have been followed by:

So it seemed to me that people were mistakenly using both terms interchangeably.

There's the rub. In it's crystaline form I believe it is passed as solid waste and is not a problem.

As an acid it stays in solution until it binds with free calcium to form a salt. That is when it causes problems in the kidney. Because the kidney is disigned to remove fluid waste and not solid waste.

It occurs in plants in both forms. It's the Oxalic acid this needs to be avoided and not the Calcium oxalate.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'm sorry to say it is probably too late judging from your description and the key point that the shell is cracked. A septic infection as a result of kidney falure is probably what you are looking at. When this happens the skin usually seperates from the shell at the point of contact. In extreme cases the shell will seperate between the scutes. The chances of bringing a tortoise back from that stage a slim to none.

You should have an experienced tortoise keeper look at this to be sure to save you the cost of a vet because at that stage you would just be wasting your money on a vet.

Sorry.

In the mean time make sure the remaining tortoise is warm and well hydrated.

>>I have 2 Leopard tortoises one I purchased from a tortoise dealer and that one is 3 years old healthy and strong with a beautifull shell we have had him since he was a month old.
>>My other leopard is 9 months old we purchased him through a pet store the babys shell is extremly soft to the point I am afraid to pick it up. And now I have noticed that by its rear leg there is a fracture in its shell. I have taken the baby to the vet within the past 2 months in hopes with help with the shell problems. The local vet just sugested calcium powder and spray to be added to its diet. I have already benn doing that from the very beginning. I did up untill today have the baby on calcium sand bedding. After noticing the shell fracture I removed that and replaced with clean linnen towels. The tortoise has a UV bulb and fed on a diet of dandy lions, yard grass, endive, calantro,yams, collard greens, carrot shreads, spiniage, brocoli. With the suplimental calcium spray and powder. The baby has a dish full of distiled water avalible at all times and soaks regulary. A hid spot is avaliable at all times and a temprature of arround 95 is maintaned. the older and younger tortoises are not housed together because of size difference. I put some peroxide on the shell fracture in hopes to keep an infection from hapening. Please if you have any sugestions that could help the baby I would relly like them my email is Gwendline@msn.com Thank you for any help you might be able to give me
>>
>>Gwendline
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I was able to get the baby into a vet this morning she used tissue glue on the crack on the babys shell. And thought that because of the clacium defencincy he was no longer eating or taking fluids and he was dehidrated and gave him a shot of fluids and calciun and sent me home with two more shots of fluids she said has electrolights in them to help with dehidration and also 10 more doses of calcuim shots that she wanted me to give every 12 hours. She sugested that I try to get him to eat some baby food with a syringe. To help him get started eating again and said I needed to change my Uv bulb every three months. And also to try to let him have natural sunlight. And to continue to soak him in the water. I am pretty concerned about givig the baby so many shots because of stress and also the pain of the shots themselvs. he is moving a tiny bit this evening on his own. Thank you for your replys and concerns
Gwendline

Sadly to say after taking the tortoise to another very today and she glued the shell back together and gave it fluids and a calcium shot and wanted a fecal sample like you said and sent me home with more calcium injections and fluids. The tortoise died this evening. Thank you for all of your replies to my letters.
Gwendline

Sorry for your loss.

At least you made every effort to take good care of him and provided a good environment for his last days.

Gwendline, I'm so sorry that you lost your little tort. It must have been really dreadful for you, and you certainly did everything you could to save him. I hope your remaining tort will continue to thrive and that there will be no more problems.

Nina