Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay gang, any suggestions on how to get Baytril injections into a snake that absolutley does not respond well to taking the shot? Would it be effective if I injected a mouse and fed it to her?

This girl was housed next to a snake that was discovered to have an RI coming out of brumation so since she has a sneeze every now and then the vet wants her on a dose of baytril to ward off any possible issues..but wowee...she does not do well with getting the injection!

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks
Dawn

If you don't have a large clear tube with a few holes in it - most of us don't then: Hold on tight, and have a second person restrain the head and neck area while you hold the posterior part of the body. Then very deliberately administer the injection. If you are by yourself (as I am in most cases), use a towel to cover most of the snake and wrap up some of the body with it, so that it can not see you/your hand. I have administered lots of shots in this manner with no problems (even with feisty snakes). Good luck!

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Poor you, first time I assume?
I've done this many, many times and never found an easy way but here's some tips:
Plan to move quickly and efficiently and have the Baytril pre-warmed to room temp.
one person holds the head and lower end of the snake with a paper towel wrapped around the vent or on his/her lap...you'll see why.
The "injector" will grab the snake firmly and slip the needle under the scales (remember to inject under a white band if poss) and quickly squirt the Baytril in.

Hold the snake firmly, it may help if the snake is wrapped around the holders wrist but not all snakes will stay there for more than a few seconds. Please remember you're not going into the snake "straight in" like a shoulder vaccination but slipping the needle in just under the skin somewhere in the upper third of the body.
Your vet should have given you some instructions too.
Good luck, you'll get it...
Jeff
Have you got the cage temp cranked to about 90?

Thanks for the advice. It is not my first time, but simply my first time that i have had a snake have such violent reactions to the attempt of getting the injection. I have no problem in general with giving the injections and have done so with no problems in the past with others, but this poor girl gets so upset by it as If I am about to kill her, which in turn of course makes me feel badly for her. She has a good temperment normally but after the injection yesterday she was so upset that she coiled up in strike position and prepared to bite my hand off if it came near her again. No worries though, she calmed down after about five minutes.

I have given injections alone and had no issue with it before, but its clear she will require an extra set of hands. Since no one answered the idea of injecting the Baytril into her food, I guess that wont work. Darn..it seemed like such an easy fix !

I do have the cage temps turned up for her. I know its important during baytril regiments to keep the temps higher.
Thanks again to both of you for you responses.

Dawn

Sorry I forgot to address that question, but no, Baytril, Flagyl, etc..are all adminsitered SC or orally. I've discussed this with 2 well qualified vets and they agree the meds perform optimally when given "as is".
That's not to say that we won't (one day) have a med tucked into a food item for cleaning out imports or wc animals. I haven't picked up Maders' new book but that is a reliable source for up to date info; he may have something documented on
stashed-meds-in-the-mouse.
You're gonna love oral catheters.
Jeff

But this day and age, there really should not be a need to treat RI, as it should not occur, ever. I know thats a strong statement but as an old fart(as far as keeping snakes is concerned) the information and conditions to not cause such a simple desease is very widespread. With that said.

I am also very disappointed in the lack of tools used by folks on this forum(Am I in a bad mood or is it really sad) There are very few tools needed to keep snakes, but really you do need tools. Consider the difference between a newbie and an expert is basically experience and tools used.

Also, my vet says(who knows if he is right) injections should be anterior of the kidneys or the antibiotics is quickly gotten rid of by the kidneys.

With that also said, heres a pic of what is called "tubing" Placing a snake in a tude allows the snake to be "worked". I guess giving injections is being worked. The tubes in this picture are about 25 yrs old and you can barely see thru them. I do have a brand new set ready to go(maybe in ten more years)

Consider with the mean information above, you really should investigate your husbandry because its really really hard to cause RI with current husbandry. Ok, I should have said it that way in the first place. But then maybe you should feel bad from the above paragraphs, because surely the snake feels bad, good luck FR

I knew the moment I asked for advice based on otheres experience on here that I was going to get slammed for my snake being sick in the first place.

I do feel if our snakes get sick it is our fault and my fault was not in providing proper quarentine to a new snake in the collection because I was in a rush to get it put down for breeding. Upon bringing it up out of a short brumation period, within 1 week the signs were evident of an RI and I took action. I knew the signs and I knew the treatment. No other in my collection have ever gotten sick and I feel my knowledge , my husbandry the conditions are good here for them. I love these animals and do not take their care lightly.

Don't worry FR, I do feel badly that she is not well and thats why I am lowering my ego enough to ask for the advice of others who have had more experience than myself in these matters. I make it a point to know ALL that I can about these animals and sometimes that information comes from others experience which can be more valuable than simply book learning.

I have learned of the tube but knew of its only need to be for sick snakes and since i havent had any, I have not bought one. Since I am on a roll with stupid questions apparently, What are the other needs and uses for this tool?

If lowering my ego and taking a slam is what it takes to get knowledge sometimes then so be it. I have a vet which i speak to, but like to hear what others have learned from their vets and their experience. Thats not going to change so I guess you will see me around again with more questions that are going to bug you FR, but thats okay..Cause generally in your post you dont seem so Gruff, so you must be an alright guy.

Good answer!!! I think tubing can be used to restrain a snake for sexing, accurate measuring, and medicating. Hope your snake gets over the ri soon.
Todd Hughes

ahhh, yes, I wasnt even thinking about measuring or sexing but of course it would be the tool to use for those things. Thanks!

When it comes to the actual life and health of a captive animals, we, you and I should not even consider our egos. As in, what does that have to do with it. If your worried about your ego, then don't keep animals.

The absolute reality is, RI(common respitory infections) are not an exposed to some pathogen type of thing. Its simply a gram-negative bacterial infection, caused by a failing immume system. Those bacteria are everywhere and actually live on the reptiles.

Poor husbandry is the cause. Whoops gotta go, more later or not, FR

What does this term mean please? From the context, I assume that it means that we cannot keep these bacteria from living around our animals, but sometimes we all mistake the context of a comment.

What else can cause a snake's immune system to be failing? Are there subtle signs that I should be trying to find, or are temperatures and humidity the main issues?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

pretaining to, or being a microorganism that does not retain the purple dye used in Gram's method.

Well it certainly seems that you know detail on things that I dont FR. Lets face it , you have been around this block much longer than I have. Instead of just trying to tell me I am just not good at taking care of my animals , why don't you be more specific and tell me exactly what I might be missing?

The animal was in a 20L container with a UTT heater to provide a gradient temp. The ambient temp of the room stays between 77 and 80 degrees. Fed FT mice weekly, given fresh water every other day, and is being kept in aspen substrate. There are Good hide spots are provided. Any feces is removed daily and cages are thoroughly cleaned and disinfected regularly. These are the general kept conditions. What are your suggestions to improve the well being of my animals?

Actually anyone suggestions are welcome.

First, you understand, its like an equation, husbandry=results. In your case, the result is a sick snake. The task is to figure what caused it, or what combinations caused it.

Why I bring this up is, I am not there to check on the conditions. Also no offense intended, but a brief discription will not help. You vet is the one that should be questioning you and recomending a cure and prevention. If you vet does not help you attempt to help you prevent such a common sickness, then get a new vet that will.

If nothing else is the problem, the only thing that seems odd is, your low temps are too high. Snakes perfer and use temps from the mid-fifties, any time of the year(of course thats the extreme end) Offering choices from the mid-sixties is a very good practice, then balanced with choices from mid eighties to one hundred degrees. Offering high temps like 100F is best when you have large cages that will maintain cool areas. When using small cages, mid eighties can be used but are very mediocre(barely adequate)

You see, there is a thousand ways to skin the cat, and your the one skinning the cat. The truth is, the toos stress snakes. The toos are, to hot, to cold, to dry, to moist, etc. Snakes like and use a varity of temps for different tasks. If you restrict their choices, you increase the chances of stressing the snake. Stress causes illness. Good luck, FR

In reading your posts it sounds like the snake came to you with a slight respitory infection (didnt you say youve only had the snake a short time?)that was probably made worse by the stresses of shipping and brumation etc... I dont think its your fault at all. It sounds like you are taking care of it so dont start looking to deep at what your doing I dont think the problem is your herpetological skills

Good luck !

Keith
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I got this snake midnovember and put her down within a week of having her to brumate. I ended up warming her back up Dec 29th and within a bit over a week noticed that she was not right and took her to the vet then and started her on Baytril injections.

My concern has been the snakes that were in the same room as her before I noticed she was sick and quarentined her. FR makes it sound like I am awful with my snakes and know nothing, but that is not the case. I may not know everything but I do know alot and continue to educate myself every chance and every way I can. I do feel that I know how to keep my animals healthy.

I do hate that she is ill and hope she recovers soon, but now I can't help but worry about the other snakes that were in that room with her. I honestly feel she came to me sick ,regardless of the negative comments received on here about it being because of my husbandry. But I am always open to new information.

Thanks Keith for your support and balancing comments.

Dawn

I think that the important point that FR was trying to make is that an RI should not be contageous to a healthy snake. Gram negative describes about half of all known bacteria, it is just a classification term. A snakes lungs and respiratory tract are filled with comensal bacteria that normaly do no harm to a healthy animal. When the snakes imune system is stressed by improper temps, poor husbandry, shipping, what have you... these bacteria can begin to cause problems. So the baytril as a preventative on a healthy snake was probobly unnecessary. The bacteria making one snake sick are probobly already present in the rest of you collection.

Also while your husbandry sounds more then adequate (I have seen healthy breeding kings in much worse, they are extremely hardy), you may want to consider a bit more of a thermal gradient. I consider a 70F to 90F to be my minimum standards. A few years ago I performed an experiment with a group of cal kings which I kept in 33 gallon long aquariums. (48 by 12in to give a good temp gradient). The temp was 68-102 day and 68-89 night. I set up a camera and recorded 24/7 where the snakes spent their time. Even in the middle of summer every snake chose to spend AT LEAST 80% of their time at or below 70F.

FR is also right about the circulation issue. You should do some research about the circulatory system of snakes and how the location of the kidneys relates to injection location and dosage. Don't be afraid to tell your vet what you know, most could use some common sense pointers when it comes to our herps.

How is the snake with the RI doing?

cheers
zach

thanks for the explanation of what he was attempting to express. The vet was the one who told me RI's were extremely contagious and reccomended that I put the several that were housed close by on a preventative treatment to be safe. He also explained about the circulation system and told me what quadrant to give the shots in.

I know that vets are not extremely well versed on reptiles, but I expected him to know more than me and he seems to know their anatomy well. Ever since he told me that it was highly contagious , I have been freakishly worried about the other snakes and every little odd thing they do has me on edge that they may be getting sick as well. Your words have put that at ease. I have not dealt with RI's before so that has me at a disadvantage in this situation, but I must say that the LAST thing in the world that I want is any more snakes being sick. One is too much.

I am going to take the reccomendations of expanding the gradient temps and making the low end lower. THe one with the RI is doing better in some ways but I wish I was seeing quicker results. She has a good appetite and is happily taking small meals every few days.The mucus that I saw in her mouth when she opened it before is not present now, but she is still doing some open mouth breathing sometimes and that keeps me worried. If they are breathing some with their mouth open but no mucus present I dont really know what to think. She has been on treatment for 11 days of being given an injection every 48 hours and is quarentined in a seperate rooms where I have the temps turned up. Any advice on the recovery period?

Thanks

>>Since no one answered the idea of injecting the Baytril into her food, I guess that wont work. Darn..it seemed like such an easy fix !
>>

Dawn,

I meant to say in my other post, my vet tells me injecting meds into the food item is not a suitable delivery method. Sorry.

Terry
Albino Tricolors

>>Okay gang, any suggestions on how to get Baytril injections into a snake that absolutley does not respond well to taking the shot? Would it be effective if I injected a mouse and fed it to her?

Hi Dawn,

I've always found tubing a hassle and shots pretty easy, but that's subjective I guess.

According to my vet, injecting the food item will NOT deliver the med properly.

If you're working alone, a few tips: get the snake to coil around you, say on your left hand if you're right-handed; wield the syringe with the right hand; pick a coil that you have easy access to, a third or 40% of the way down the snake's length; insert the needle into the meaty part of the snake's body low on the side, and here's the important part: HAVE THE NEEDLE POINTING TOWARD THE HEAD END--that way, if the snake creeps forward while you have the needle inserted, it simply pulls away from the needle, the needle comes out, no harm done. If you're aiming the other way, or straight in, and the snake moves--and they do--you're tearing internal tissue and that can't be good. You don't want to go deep anyway, all you're trying to do is to get under the skin, into the muscle.

It pays to anticipate that the snake's gonna move, and in which direction, and leave the hand with the syringe loose in the air--not resting on something--so that when the snake moves slightly you can move with itl.

Of course, if you've got someone to help you, these tips still apply but your job will be much easier.

I hope that helps. I'd give a dozen injections rather than have to tube once!

Terry

She is doing much better.

I sampled with humidity levels in her enclosure this past week and found much better results in a low humidity atmosphere for her with high heat. The bloating of her body has subsided alot and she is eager to feed. There is still a little bit of noise in her breathing so she is certainly not completely well yet, but definitely on the right track.