Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey thanks for sticking with me. I truly appreciate you kindness and understanding. Here are the EXACT words from the label of the two meds, I hope this is what you need. Your right about the .15CC part, I left out the ( . ) apparently, due to the very small print on bottle (a 15, 000 pound chameleon would be totally awesome though). He gave my four oral syringes and the meds, rubber tip thingy you mentioned. I hope this is what you are looking for, and please send me the next info that you need, I would appreciate it.

CALCIUM GLUCONATE 23% INJ.
Directions: GIVE .15CC ORALLY TWICE A DAY FOR 21 DAYS
Quantity: 10

BAYTRIL SUSPENSION
Directions: GIVE .15CC ORALLY ONCE A DAY UNTIL APPARENT IMPROVEMENT
Quantity: 6

He did NOT give me a rubber tip end thingy which you were talking about. (what is it?)

For what reason did he give you the baytril? Did he do a sensitivity test on a bacteria sample, or did he just assume there was something wrong, and perscripbe baytril?

Too many vets simply give baytril to chameleons with health problems, as it's assumed to be a "safe" medication, and its use has very little risk associated with it.

I do NOT like to question the advice of a vet, but I'm going to do it anyway.

It is very nasty to chameleons. Unless you are pretty certain there's a systematic bacterial infection, I would not use it. My vet gave it to me for my male veield, who had severe burns, as a preventative against infection. He went downhill immediatly. I topped baytril, and he was fine within a day.

Every animal whom I've given baytril to foe a week or more has died. Since then, I have never lost an animal to infection.

Baytril can cause kidney damage, even to well hydrated and healthy chameleons.

Here's what you should do:

Contact your vet. Ask him if there was any immediate evidence of infection. Also, see if he is aware of the common side effects of baytril use on chameleons. Tell him that many people have observed some very nasty deaths as a result of its use. Esentially, let him know that it's got a reputation for doing bad things, and that it should not be used as a preventative measure, as the risks are pretty high. If he's seen evidence of infection, then that's fine. However, if there wasnt' any CLEAR evidence of infection, if the sickness was merely a calcium related problem, then DO NOT USE BAYTRIL.

Too many vets shotgunn reptiles. Plain and simple. Even experienced ones will treat every little problem they have with a shotgun blast, hitting everything they can think of, when what they need is a rifle bullet.

Weakness brought about by calcium problems, neocal glucon, UVB light, and a supplementation of Repcal with D3.

Burns, cuts, abrasions, bites, etc. Rinse with antiseptic wash, cover with antiseptic cream. That's it.

What my vets have done in these cases is shotgun the thing with antibiotics, just to prevent any infection. Unfortunatly, the chance of infection was small, the chance of death from kidney failure from antibiotic treatment was high.

Antibiotic, Just in case...

Stop it. Just don't use it. For some reason, vets seem to be ignorant of the side effects of baytril. I guess they don't see the animals droppign dead of kidney failure - they probably assume it's bacterial infections.

Your vet means well, I'm sure. But if he doesn't have an infection, he does not need potentiall fatal antibiotics. Especially with such a loose dosage timeframe (until there's improvement???!?!).

Fact is, if you continue to treat the reccomended dosage of baytril to your animal, you will liely NOT see improvement until you stop the doses. It really makes them miserable.

I've used it for short periods of time on some chameleosn with potential respiratory infections, and though they recovered, while they wereon it they were miserable.

I won't challange th edecision of a vet unless I'm positive. Baytril as a last ditch effort to kill off a systematic infection, fine. Baytril as a preventative - heck no. I've lost my favorite chameleon to it, and I know of at least one other person that's that the same thing happen.

I remember the vet looking in his mouth and checking for broken blood vessels, for sign of infection, and he said he didn't find any. He said it looked good, obviously saying there was no infection. I don't see why he would perscibe my chameleon this since he did not see any apparant infection. Doesn't make since now that I go over that moment in my mind.

It's normal, common, even, for vets with little experience with chameleons to do so. Like I said, even some vets WITH experience do this. They do not seem to know about the harmful effects of it. Some people do not have problems with their animals. however, mot will get sick from it, and not recover until afterwards. Soem will simply get sodamaged, they'll die from the antibiotic, and associated side effects.

I think the tendancy to over-medicate is all too common. I find my animals do best when left alone, in almost every situation. If they get cut or burned, I apply silver sulfadine(spelling?) cream (ask your vet for this - it's the best antiseptic topical you can get for reptiles)and have good results.

in fact, I've never lost an animal that I've treated with SS cream!

First off, since I do not know enough about cham antibiotics except what I have learned on the forum - and the one time I had to give some to Luna - I do know that antibiotics "just in case" is not a good idea and I also know Eric A. from this forum over the years and would trust his advice. I would not give the antibiotics without knowing if there is an infection and from what that infection might be caused.

Glad we cleared up the NCg (which is what you have), however the dose still seems a bit high. You do not want to over supplement which can be easily done with a very concentrated one such as NCg. Did he do a blood test to determine just what Houdini's Ca/blood level is? I also think that dose at 21 days is extreme. Personally, I would either give him 1/2 the dose (.075) 2x/day or the .15 only once/day.

I want to add that the other pics you posted his legs look thin and straight (that's a good thing!) and if the tongue problem is the main one it is possible that it is from OVER supplementing - remember that in your earlier post when you listed you setup, we commented on the fact that you were giving the Calcium too frequently. I would like others' opinions here, but what you might want to do is stop all supplements for now (including what the vet gave you) and see if the tongue takes care of itself as the calcium leaves his system. You can slowly reintroduce supplements when his health seems back to normal. Btw, did the vet ask you what your supplementation regimen was? Did he know you were giving Ca every other feeding? If so, he is even more remiss in giving you MORE calcium! If he did not ask you he is remiss in simply doing his job!

I would also REALLY focus on the dehydration right now. Frankly, if anything, some subcutaneous saline solution (for rehydration) would have been a much better course for the vet to take. You can try giving him daily showers (Luna really enjoyed hers). Place a large plant in the tub. Put bunched up towels on the tub floor (just in case he falls the landing is soft) turn on the water and get a nice temp (not too hot or cold) . Aim the shower head to the wall so that the spray hits the plant rather than the full force of the shower spray. Then place him on a low branch and let him climb up to a spot he is happy with. Let him stay in there as long as he wants and as long as the water stays at a good temp. I would stay in there with him the first few times to make sure he is OK with it. You can also place him on the plant first and put it toward the end of the tub (opposite shower) and slowly slide it under the stream of water until he seems OK.

Another way to rehydrate and get nutrition is using a product called repta-aid made by Flukers. Most any chain pet store should carry it and runs about $10. Follow the directions closely. This too is based on weight so if you don’t have a scale (digital that shows grams) you might want to get one. It is always good to have for weight monitoring. You can get a kitchen scale at most discount stores for b/t $20-$30.

Drippers: I use the ‘Lil Dripper (forget who makes it). You can regulate the amount that comes out. Sometimes it gets “stuck.” Other forum members have made their own. A humidifier setup is REALLY helpful to keep the humidity up in the cage. You can rig up a direct feed by using pvc pipe (see pic below).

OK, I think I covered most for now. Keep us posted and let me know how you are doing. We'll get you thru this

lele

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

i'm a tech and i educated one of the vets i work with about baytril after reading this forum. since he didn't know that much about the effects, he would inject them with it. first he would try to get them to a vet who knew what they were doing, but since he does emergencies sometimes there is no one at 3 in the morning. he knows better know.

always great to get more knowledge out there. Nice that you are in a job/position where you can present this info and not have them feel offended. Not sure if I linked this before, but here is the article on it in chamnews. Now this was written in 2003 so there may be even more current info, but this article explains what the vet should do in order to decide if it is appropriate or not. Might give him this link.

lele
Baytril

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

thanks lele, i'm always looking to expand anyone/everyone's knowledge if i can. i'll definately show him the article.

I have to ask about your username...it cracks me up! If it is a song or a band (soemthing that I SHOULD know keep in mind I'm over 50 and live in the sticks of NH!! lol

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

i couldn't think of a name and this one just popped into my head. i guess it could mean i'm really dumb or really smart. lol