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A Newbie Herper's Time Machine (very long)

wftright Jan 14, 2006 08:08 PM

This weekend marks three months of snake ownership for me. In that time, I've learned a bit and already regret a few choices. If a time machine could take me back three months, things would be different. A part of me is hesitant to give advice from only three months of experience, but the writer in me can never resist summarizing my thoughts in writing.

I've been contemplating snake ownership for years. As a kid, I tried and failed to keep a few little snakes that I found in the yard. Living in Oklahoma City during the early 90's, I called Bob Clark once and talked for half an hour or so about owning snakes. For the past few years, I've researched the topic on the internet several times before the desire passed.

In August, I e-mailed with some folks from the Louisiana Gulf Coast Herpetological Society. The best way to start any hobby is to learn from people who are experienced. Reading caresheets on the web is good, but standing in someone's snake room to see and hear explanations of specific setups will always be better. I was planning to get those explanations when Katrina and Rita hit. About the time that I was going to ask for help, I lost all of my contact information because I had a problem with AOL and my computer.

As a result, I met the month of October with a strong desire to own a boa or python after 35 years of waiting and yet without any good in-person source of expertise except what I could find at a pet store. I understood the caresheets pretty well, but I wasn't confident and wanted the added security that would come from in-person explanations. Eventually, I went to a reputable pet store, opened my wallet, and left with everything that one of the managers recommended. Some choices were good. Some choices weren't so good. The point of this rambling essay is to explain what I'll do differently when a time machine allows me to go back to early October.

The Cage

I left the store with a 55 gallon long aquarium, (and later bought a second one for a second snake). I wanted something that would be good for the life of a ball python, a California kingsnake, or an Okeetee cornsnake. Is this aquarium the right housing for any of those animals? I believe that it will be good enough. If I do everything else right, I believe that my animals (a ball python and a California kingsnake so far) will live reasonably comfortable lives. Are these aquariums ideal? No, they're not even close to being ideal, and I knew that when I bought them. Unfortunately, I couldn't bring myself to order the cages I really wanted when I wasn't sure that I understood cage setup.

I called the website that had the cages I liked and asked about heating, lighting, and other accessories. The guy was nice but ended by telling me that they don't recommend any specifics and that I could easily find what I needed "all over the internet." I thought about the number of times someone has given me directions and ended with "You can't miss it." I hear those words and know that I'm going to be lost. They guy's comments sounded ominously like "You can't miss it," and I shrank from getting everything on the web.

When I get that time machine, I'll go back and get started with better cages.

Undertank Heaters

I may not know herpetoculture, but I'm a pretty fair engineer. As a corrosion engineer, I know a bit about heat transfer. (I know more than some would admit but maybe less than I think.) I know that pockets of unmoving air are great insulators. Styrofoam is a good insulator because the foaming agent creates millions of little bubbles in the styrene, and those bubbles hold little pockets of unmoving air. That air doesn't conduct heat well. The interfaces between air and styrene don't conduct heat well. As a result, styrofoam is a good insulator.

The point of this lecture is that I've found three brands of undertank heating pads. The one marketed by a local company is just a pad without any adhesive to hold the pad to the bottom of the tank. The other two brands have adhesive. The store where I bought my aquarium only sells the non-adhesive brand. No matter how tightly one tries to tape this pad to the bottom of an aquarium, the contact between pad and glass isn't good. The bad contact leaves a gap. The gap forms a little pocket of air. The air leads to less efficient heat transfer to the glass.

When I started trying to install the heating pad, the instructions talked about putting a layer of expanded polyethylene (styrofoam by a different name with a different base polymer) between the bottom of the aquarium and whatever surface was under the aquarium. When I called the company for help, a lady asked around and told me that the expanded polyethylene wasn't necessary. I don't know whether she honestly believed that it wasn't needed or whether she just wanted to be rid of me. I eventually found the expanded polyethylene at Home Depot, but coming home from the pet store only to have the instructions tell me I needed to get something else was frustrating.

To make matters worse, the manager sold me the "Jumbo" sized heating pad. Unfortunately, she didn't realize that the aquarium had a bottom support that prevented this pad from making contact around the support. I felt that returning the heating pad and asking questions would make me look stupider than I already looked. (I'd already had big problems with the light bar.) Instead, I just put the pad where I could and tried not to worry about the bad fit. I ended up with a really big air gap in this area, but the good conductivity of the metal bar seems to be compensating.

I don't think badly of the lady who helped me pick all of this stuff. She probably still knows more than I do about keeping snakes, and without her giving me confidence by pointing to various stuff and saying "This is what you need," I might not own a snake even now. However, when I set up my second aquarium two weeks later, I bought two smaller pads instead of the Jumbo pad and used expanded polyethylene to force the pads against the bottom of the aquarium and to keep heat from going into the stands on which the aquarium sits. For what it's worth, I have a range of 88 to 92 degrees on the hot side of my second aquarium about 65 to 70 degrees on the cool side. I use only the undertank heating for this aquarium. The humidity stays in the 45 to 55 percent range fairly easily, and my California Kingsnake has had two good sheds.

When the time machine takes me back to the point of buying undertank heaters, I'll likely try one of the brands with adhesive to hold the pad to the cage bottom. Even with a better cage, good contact between the pad and the cage bottom would help. The polyethylene insulation is still a good idea.

Lighting

I won't recount all the problems I had with the first light fixture that they sold me. Everyone was very nice about getting the problem fixed, but the ordeal wasn't fun. I still haven't decided where I stand on the question of whether ball pythons or kingsnakes need exposure to UVB light. I bought a fixture that would give me fluorescent light in the cage plus incandescent white light or black light for extra heating. As I've worked out some of the issues with the heating pad, I've come to believe that I don't need much light bulb heating. Furthermore, the fixture that I have doesn't allow these lights to be controlled by a thermostat.

When I go through the time machine, I'll get a simple fixture that lets me have fluorescent light in the cage. I'll turn it on in the daytime in case my snakes need UVB light and I'll have it for those occasions when I need or want to see the inside of the cage. If I need incandescent light bulb heating, I'll go with a clamp lamp because they are easier to control with a thermostat.

Thermometers

Yes, it took me a couple of weeks to learn by experience what everyone kept telling me. The liquid crystal thermometers that stick to the walls of an aquarium are largely worthless. I still think that they do okay at showing that conditions are stable, but they don't tell anything important about the temperatures that the snake sees.

My second attempt at using cheap thermometers involved buying little aquarium thermometers and sticking them to sides of the cage at bedding level using their suction cups. I still like using these thermometers as a guide to how the cage is doing, but there is a gradient near the sides of my cages. The temperature within a quarter inch of the glass will be different from the temperature a few inches from the glass.

Finally, I found the cheap digitals that are available at numerous reptile supply websites. They are nice, but probe placement is still important. I've seen the temperature reading swing ten degrees in half an hour because my snake pushed the probe from one spot to a nearby spot.

I've had a temperature gun for a month. I don't think a temperature gun is an absolute necessity, but I like it.

Even with the time machine, I'd buy the little aquarium thermometers. I'd certainly buy the digital thermometers. I might buy one or two strip thermometers for show. I'd still order the temperature gun for extra data and because it's such a neat gadget.

Hides

Most of web articles about snake care say that good hides are essential but give no further details. Digging a little deeper, one finds articles and product reviews describing the good and bad points of various kinds of hides. The weakness that all of these writings have in common is that none of them are actually written by snakes. Furthermore, even if a few had been written by snakes, they wouldn't have been written by either of my snakes.

I've read reviews and commentaries all over the web praising the virtues of various cave designs. Other people's snakes apparently love these hides. My ball python has never been in hers. My kingsnake has been in and out of his briefly.

I've read an article by a respected snake keeper who had nothing but scorn for the hollow log and half-log designs. My ball python uses her hollow log. What my kingsnake really loves is a little plastic dog dish, but when he's not under the dog dish, he uses half-log hides.

My current hypothesis is that snakes have individual tastes in hiding spots just as people have individual tastes in homes. When I go in that time machine, I'll know what hides to get for each of my current snakes, but if I had to start from scratch with a new snake, I'd still have to offer him (or her) everything I could find and see what he likes.

Costs

Before I started buying stuff, I had the store manager list what I'd need so that I'd have a good idea about costs. According to her first list, I'd need about $500 in setup costs plus about $250 per year for food and bedding for each snake that I wanted to own. The breakdown was something like this:

Aquarium - $150
Aquarium stand - $160
Undertank heater - $50
Light fixture and lights - $120
Accessories - $50
Care book - $12

Of course, even this list goes over the $500 limit.

Food items - $2 per weekly feeding times 52 weeks - $104
Bedding - $15 per cage cleaning times 10 cage cleanings per year - $150

(Insert Master Card "priceless" joke at your leisure.)

The time machine breakdown would be something like the following:

Cage - $360
Stand - $30
Undertank heater - $40
Light fixture and lights - $70
Accessories - $200
Scale - $25
Temperature gun (with case) - $55
Extra floor lamp and bulb (to heat snake room) - $25
Care book - $12

This total is near $800, and I consider $700 to $800 a starting point. At some point, I'll probably add thermostats to each cage, so my ideal "basic" setup cost will be higher. Within a few weeks, I'll probably add the NERD book to my library, so the cost will increase another $65.

My food, bedding, and other recurring expenses are probably going to run about $300 a year. The costs for food and bedding as given previously are a little low, and I have additional costs of specialized reptile cage cleaners and a skin treatment that I try to give each snake a couple of times per week.

Obviously, many people keep snakes without spending this much money. Caging can be as simple as a plastic container with ventilation holes and cost no more than $25. Bedding can be newspaper that is essentially free. Hides and water dishes can be made from inexpensive household items. Lighting, a scale, and a temperature gun are not absolutely necessary. I can't say that my snakes are happier or healthier than snakes living in less expensive setups, but the beginner needs to know that the cost of a "beginner snake" is the least expensive part of joining the hobby. I halfway recognized this fact three months ago. Even with my planning, I underestimated the costs of getting into snake ownership. I don't regret my spending. I have two very nice snakes, and these expenses will be small when considered against the 20+ years of companionship that I will enjoy.

Okay, I'm not likely to have use of a time machine anytime soon. If I did, I probably wouldn't use it to get better stuff for my snakes, (but that use might be the least dangerous thing that I could do with a time machine). When I first bought my snakes, I halfway expected every morning to get up and find that one had died. I expected to describe everything to some experienced herper and have him or her say, "Yeah, you shouldn't have done that. Funny, I've never run into anyone else who made that mistake." I'd ask why the caresheets don't mention it, and he would tell me that no one ever thought of it. The best thing I've learned in three months is that there isn't some secret "gotcha" that no one thinks to mention. I could have relied on what I thought I understood and created a setup that would have been fine. The caresheets don't agree on every point, but the "happy medium" between their recommendations seems to be happy and healthy enough for my snakes.

Bill

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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Replies (39)

perseus Jan 14, 2006 09:00 PM

I am truly in awe of how much you wrote, and I'm guessing you are a writer because really... who else would write that much?

wftright Jan 14, 2006 10:30 PM

The irony is that I'm an engineer in real life, and everyone says that engineers can't write. In any case, I hope that what I wrote was entertaining or interesting or in some way justified any time that you spent reading. I know that most people don't like long posts, but I hope that a few will enjoy.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

wingert1 Jan 15, 2006 05:46 PM

Put it in something it can't get out of, get one side heated to around 90 deg., and put a container with some water in it. Feed a few small rats or mice weekly.

Kevin

wftright Jan 15, 2006 07:19 PM

Yeah, I'm having fun making things complicated. Mostly, I'm enjoying offering different options and seeing what my snakes will do.

Thanks,

Bill

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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

wingert1 Jan 16, 2006 02:40 AM

Fussing over them and learning everything you can is really more than half the fun of keeping them. There is always more to know so the fun of learning really never ends. All the same it really is as simple as I said. Most snakes do well with a fairly simple set up. You mentioned undertank heaters and seemed to prefer ones with adheasive. I have found that ones without are your best buy. They can be swithed from one enclosure to another with ease and seem to last a long time. I use aluminum foil tape to fix them to the enclosure. You can find it at any hardware store. It works great.

Kevin

wftright Jan 16, 2006 08:23 PM

I ordered a thermostat today, and the guy is going to send me a little tape to secure the probe in the aquarium. If I find myself doing other setup changes, I'll look for the aluminum tape. I can imagine that this tape would do well for this purpose because of the good conductivity.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

wingert1 Jan 16, 2006 10:03 PM

n/p

StaceyLayne Jan 14, 2006 10:43 PM

I enjoyed reading your post! Could almost see the time machine being built in the middle of the living room lol!

Mine likes the half logs too...and I'm not going to tell him he's apparently not supposed to hehe!

DeAnne

wftright Jan 15, 2006 12:05 PM

Thanks for the reply. Actually, I think I'll build the time machine in my '93 Mazda pickup truck. That way, I'll have enough room to bring stuff home if I want to buy any larger items. The DeLorean that they used in those "Back to the Future" movies just doesn't have enough cargo space. Of course, after being exposed to hail stones in Oklahoma, road salt in Tennessee and Kentucky winters, and hauling a wet, dripping kayak in Louisiana and Texas, my old pickup isn't nearly as pretty as that DeLorean. On the other hand, no one's likely to steal it. I just hope I don't have to get the thing up to 88 mph. That bucket wouldn't go 88 if it dropped over a cliff.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Herpquest Jan 15, 2006 06:22 AM

I could not help but notice your comment near to the end of your 'report'-
"At some point, I'll probably add thermostats to each cage, so my ideal "basic" setup cost will be higher."
Thermostats are essential when artificial heating is being used! Too many 'newbies' have made the mistake of failing to fit thermostats to heating devices, and have paid the cost of finding their charges cooked.
Eric Davies

wftright Jan 15, 2006 11:56 AM

Thanks, you've hit another point on which I'm curious.

In the three months that I've had my setup, I've followed the temperatures very closely. When I was using the overhead incandescent in my light fixture for daily heat, I had a few days when the warm side of the cage became very warm. Now that I use the UTH almost exclusively, I don't see any high temperatures. (I had one spot under a tile hide that would become very hot because the tile hide was holding too much heat against the floor. When I moved the tile hide, the temperature returned to reasonble levels.)

If I'm not getting high temperatures with the UTH's running at 100%, what's going to cause a sudden spike that would cause dangerously high temperatures? I can see where depending on a rheostat or some other mechanism to cut my heaters below 100% output could fail and lead to high temperatures when everything swung to 100%. I can't see how the temperatures could become hotter if everything is already running at 100%. Is there some failure mechanim that causes the pad to become hotter instead of just quitting? Is that failure mechanism time dependent? If the pad has a life of 3-5 years and then may be prone to this failure, I would want to replace the pads every 2-3 years even when/if I get a thermostat.

I'm not trying to say that your warning is wrong, but I am trying to understand the failure mechanism that would cause my UTH pads to spike in temperature.

For whatever it's worth, I supplement the UTH pads with a single overhead clamp lamp holding a 60W blacklight bulb. That clamp lamp is on a Zoo Med Repti Temp 500R thermostat. I'd guess that the light is on for three to six hours a day depending on conditions in the house.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

jarskie Jan 15, 2006 03:19 PM

Now, I am no electrician, but would a power surge or brown out cause the amount to watts flowing to the UTH to increase? Thus bringing the 100% temp up to more than the orginal temp? This too is a concept I have been thinking about. What if you blow a breaker in one portion of your home, would this cause the amps/watts in the remaining portion to rise? Not saying your wrong or right, just giving you food for thought, also trying to find an answer to the questions I also have had.

~Johnny

wftright Jan 15, 2006 05:04 PM

I may try to call the UTH supplier to see whether they'll give me technical support on this issue. They may have answered this question in tests already. I may also try to talk to the electrical engineering technicians at work. I'm not close to anyone in that group, but one or two of them might talk to me about it.

My first thought is that a brown-out wouldn't do anything detrimental. A brown-out will essentially mimic the performance of a proportional thermostat. The reduced voltage/amperage during a brown-out will result in less wattage available for the pad. The pad will cool slightly, but the pad shouldn't be damaged in any way. Computers and other things that are made to accept a certain voltage may have problems, but a heating element should be okay.

A power surge would put more amps through the pad during the time of the surge, but a power surge that lasted long enough to raise the cage temperature significantly would likely cause a fire in the house. I think that the more likely sequence of events in a surge is that the breakers would stop the current to protect the house. The question is whether the surge could damage the control mechanism of the pad enough to make produce more heat than it usually would. If something fused small wires in the pad, the short circuit might cause the current to bypass the heating elements. In that case, the pad would be cooler after the initial short spike. The only danger would be if something caused an increase in current to the heating elements.

My first thought on blowing one breaker is that current and voltage to the rest of the house shouldn't change. If the house is wired so that blowing one breaker increases power elsewhere, then each of the breakers should trip to protect the house from the increased electricity. I can't imagine the codes allowing that kind of design, but sometimes people writing codes make horrible mistakes.

Do you use thermostats? If so, what kind?

If I learn anything, I'll let you know.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

jarskie Jan 15, 2006 08:41 PM

All very good points, and I hadn't stopped to think about that in the entire house, regarding the breakers... I do use a thermostat, the johnson. But, I also have a UTH on my first ball pythons tank, and faced similar problems that you did regarding heat transfer. My problem was that since 100% was too hot, i used air flow inbetween the pad and tank, and attached to the top of the UTH was a piece of ceramic tile. I also like the idea of a ceramic tile b/c in the event that I want to place the UTH on a different tank, I dont have to worry about unsticking it, and resticking it, and it not being sticky enough... So, I just stuck it to a piece of tile, and its good to go. But I still dont like having to prop the tank up on one side to allow the heat transfer to cool before making it to the bottom of the glass, and will be attaching it to the thermostat sometime soon. Anyways, great post btw, and check below on the pet store post, I mentioned where (hopefully) my families store will be. Take care,

~Johnny

wftright Jan 15, 2006 09:22 PM

I've heard of the Johnson and tried to read about the different thermostats available. I haven't decided how to go about picking one. I've been looking at the one offered by Big Apple Herp, but I don't remember what turned me onto that one.

I can't find your pet store post anymore. I wonder whether they deleted it.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

havic Jan 15, 2006 11:49 PM

i only know this because i was reading it under the ball forum.
then i went to the next reply and it was the open discussion forum lol. i think they moved me with it LL
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

wftright Jan 15, 2006 11:57 PM

np
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

jarskie Jan 16, 2006 03:01 PM

Well, my selection of the Johnson was fairly easy to me because of one limiting factor... Money. When you have a budget, your selection gets limited and that makes it pretty easy. I had pretty much narrowed it down to the ranco and the johnson. To be honest, I was going to go with the ranco, but when I called to order it (lllreptiles if im not mistaken, I have to paperwork around if you want to know for sure), the person I talked to said that they are basically both really good t-stats for the price, both have exceptional records of quality, but the only reason I went with the Johnson was b/c he said that is more compact. The ranco is a bigger unit than the Johnson, and essentially, the ranco just has dead space inside the plastic housing. Not much difference, but the unit has worked out fine for me. Since I dont have to worry about cooling at the moment, Im not to worried about a night drop, even then, when that times comes, I dont have that many snakes, so I dont mind doing it manually. My only complaint, and this really isn't about the t-stat, is that I am having a hard time determining which wiring is providing the equal flow of electricity to the heat tapes. I am continually trying to find which method will provide an equal flow of electricty, and therefor allow each strip of heat tape to be the exact same temp. Some methods there are about a 3-5 degree difference, some more. I know 3-5 degrees isn't a lot, and I should probably be content with that, but, well, im not... Call me ocd, but I have a feel that you can identify with my obsession to get everything just perfect, haha!

~Johnny

P.S. email: dearmanusmc@hotmail.com

wftright Jan 16, 2006 08:19 PM

I know what you mean about wanting things to be perfect. I fiddle with things a great deal trying to bring them under my control.

I did some surfing this weekend, and I ordered a Johnson thermostat today. I had a long talk with MG Reptiles, and they answered my questions to the point that I no longer feel a need to go with a proportional thermostat. I actually ordered two of them so that I can control both aquariums. Time will tell whether I like this setup. The kingsnake aquarium always seems to be just perfect, and I'm getting the thermostat only to mitigate the risk of a complete runaway heat mat. The ball python cage often seems to be either too hot or too cool. I'm hoping that the thermostat will bring this enclosure into better control.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

ajfreptiles Jan 15, 2006 08:18 AM

Costs

Before I started buying stuff, I had the store manager list what I'd need so that I'd have a good idea about costs. According to her first list, I'd need about $500 in setup costs plus about $250 per year for food and bedding for each snake that I wanted to own. The breakdown was something like this:

Aquarium - $150
Aquarium stand - $160
Undertank heater - $50
Light fixture and lights - $120
Accessories - $50
Care book - $12

Of course, even this list goes over the $500 limit.

Food items - $2 per weekly feeding times 52 weeks - $104
Bedding - $15 per cage cleaning times 10 cage cleanings per year - $150

(Insert Master Card "priceless" joke at your leisure.)

The time machine breakdown would be something like the following:

Cage - $360
Stand - $30
Undertank heater - $40
Light fixture and lights - $70
Accessories - $200
Scale - $25
Temperature gun (with case) - $55
Extra floor lamp and bulb (to heat snake room) - $25
Care book - $12

I feel for you for what you had to go through to get to the point you are at.......

Pet shops in most cases are poor places to obtain info on care of reptiles....it is very unfortunate....

The best type of caging in my opinion for snakes of any kind....is rubbermaid tubs in a rack.

If you ever build your own rack it will be something you will enjoy for ever...

Home depot carries the melamine (white coated hardboard) the type used for bedroom shelving...and making shelves where the rubbermaid fits into like a drawer, with holes drilled in the sides of the rubbermaid for airflow...

These plastic tubs provide great humidity, and low cost along with size variety and EASE OF CLEANING....unlike aquariums...

Heating can also be done with sticking the heat pads to the back of the rack set up or buying the long heat tape that is also sold by some reptile dealers on the net....

Hook the heat pads up to a lamp dimmer cord that you can also buy at home depot..

Buy your digital indoor outdoor thermometers at walmart for 9-15 bucks they have a probe so you can know the inside and outside temps at a glance .........could also be used for hot side and cool side of your tank...

Always ask questions here on the forums...

Hope you enjoy your snakes....and wish you the best with them. Andy Federico

mikebell Jan 15, 2006 10:37 AM

The only problem with a light dimmer is that when they fail they usually go to full power. Also they usually have to be set so low that when the power goes out and then comes back on the dimmer may stay off and need to be turned up higher to get it going again and then lowered to the correct setting. Connecting a small light bulb to the output gives a good visual of what is going on.
Mike

wftright Jan 15, 2006 11:31 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I'm still not sure about the whole rack idea. I can certainly see where racks would be ideal for those who have more than two snakes. If I ever wanted to expand my collection, I'd have to go to a rack system. However, I'm pretty happy stopping at two snakes. I have enough time to handle each of them and study how different actions affect conditions in their cages.

I like being able to see into their cages easily, and I wouldn't be able to see through a Rubbermaid container. Even the "clear" plastic containers don't give as good a view as a glass fronted enclosure of some kind. By keeping my collection to a few snakes, the benefit of being able to see into the cage is greater than the cost of more difficult cleaning. While I wouldn't buy aquariums if I had it to do again, I'd buy nice, stacking, display cages. They'd be much more expensive than even my aquariums, but I can afford two nice cages over the life of my snakes. They'd be easier to use and control than glass aquariums, but they'd be more visually appealing than Rubbermaid tubs.

Do you have any display cages where you set up a snake to be seen or do you keep everything in racks? If you have any display cages, what are they?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

mikebell Jan 15, 2006 10:39 AM

I didn't read the entire post. How does bedding cost $15 per cleaning. That sounds very high no matter what you are using.
Mike

wftright Jan 15, 2006 11:14 AM

Both of my cages are 55 gallon long aquariums, and I'm fairly certain that I use two (or almost two) bags of Repti-bark in each of them every time that I change bedding. I also cover some portions of the cage with cypress mulch because I've read on these boards that cypress mulch tends to maintain higher humidity. (I've noticed this assertion to be true in my aquariums.) I put spaghnum moss over the bark or mulch bedding in several parts of the cage as well. As I throw away empty bags after each cleaning, I make a rough count of bags x price tags. For the bags that I don't fully use, I do a rough division to add to the cost. I also add what I anticipate adding to the cage when I do a spot cleaning and remove some old bedding and replace with new bedding.

Maybe I'm overestimating when I say that the cost is a full $15/cleaning. For budgetary purposes, I like to overestimate and spend a little less than to do the opposite. In the spirit of "if I knew then what I know now," I still think $15/cleaning is a good number for establishing a budget. When I calculated annual costs, I didn't know about or think about buying specialized cleaners that they make for reptile/animal cages. I've been experimenting with different of these cleaners, so if the actual bedding cost is a little high, the cost of specialized cleaners brings the overall estimate back into line.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'm doing something wrong on the bedding. I'll keep learning.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

havic Jan 15, 2006 12:58 PM

just a suggestion if your intersted in saving a little money.
we get a 2 cu. ft. bag of aspen shavings at a local pet store.
the bag is $12.00 and we have hardly uesd it.just a suggestion nothing moor

ps i love the way back machine idea made me laugh.
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

wftright Jan 15, 2006 02:54 PM

Thanks for the suggestion. Obviously, I could be saving money in many ways, and everyone's posts are helping me in this area. Fortunately, with only two snakes, the impact of mistakes in cost efficiency isn't costing me too much.

I have mixed feelings about the aspen. I've occasionally put a layer of aspen shavings over the Repti-Bark in parts of my cages. In one part of my kingsnake's cage, I use only aspen shavings. Aspen is okay, but I like the darker color of the bark bedding over most of the floor. When I've used aspen, I've used it to create more contrast. In addition, if I noticed a snake spending more time over the aspen, I'd switch more of the cage to aspen to satisfy this preference of the snake.

If I thought that aspen would be significantly better for the health of my snakes, I'd switch entirely to aspen. However, the posts on these boards don't suggest that either of these substrates is really healthier for the snakes. The aspen may be less harmful in the digestive track if it's swallowed because the shavings are small. On the other hand, some people say that aspen is more prone to mold.

In any case, I appreciate the suggestion and am glad that the time machine story was entertaining.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Misskiwi67 Jan 15, 2006 01:23 PM

If you want to save some money, I get a 2 cubic foot bag of cypress mulch from my local garden store for 2.99. Half a bag will give me a 1-2 inch depth in my 4 foot by 2 foot cage...

If you switched to purely cypress (if its available in your area) then you could save a considerable amount on bedding.

havic Jan 15, 2006 01:51 PM

ya i went to lowes and were out of cypress mulch and knew nothing about when they were getting moor in lol.
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

wftright Jan 15, 2006 02:37 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I've heard of people buying their bedding from the hardware store or Wal-Mart. In fact, I have a big bag of cypress mulch that I bought at Wal-Mart for about the price that you mentioned. I use that stuff for mulching around a couple of trees in my back yard.

My hesitation is that I've also heard people on these boards talk about needing to treat this mulch to eliminate mites and other insects. I guess I've heard more about this problem in the kingsnake forum than I have in this forum. I think people in the other forum mentioned putting the bedding in a bag and microwaving it for a few minutes. No one ever specifies a temperature that the mulch must reach to kill all of the bugs.

Do you treat the cypress mulch to kill bugs? If so, what do you do?

As long as I have only two snakes, I can afford the Repti-bark and whatever the pet supply companies call their cypress mulch bedding. (My Zoo Med bedding is called "Forest Floor Bedding." ) I'm assuming that Zoo Med treats the cypress mulch to eliminate parasites, but maybe that's a bad assumption. To be honest, I also like the look of the Repti-bark, so a part of me will always lean towards using this bedding even at a higher cost. On the other hand, I'd like to know my options first because the whole question is interesting and secondly because knowing more can help me do things better. Any clarification that you can give on these points is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

havic Jan 15, 2006 03:04 PM

......(My Zoo Med bedding is called "Forest Floor Bedding." )

now dont quote me but i think it is the same stuff i baught from petco. if it is the same i found lots of bugs in their product.
so i took it back and asked if the bugs were a part of the sale ll. they said no and i exchanged it for aspen bedding.
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

havic Jan 15, 2006 03:15 PM

sorry i forgot to mention that it wasn't just one bag but all the bags that they had in stock. and every time i go there to get supplies i check it again just because. now i don't know if it is just this store or just this bach that this store got from their supplier but every bag has them crawling around in the bag.
ll
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2.1.0 ball python (aragorn, frodo, arwen)
2.0.0 columbian boa (wiggles and squiggles)
1.0.0 rat snake (alabastered)
0.1.0 corn snake (baby)
3.3.0 cats (rockie, bs, brownie, lerrado, kole, camie)
1.3.0 kids (dilyen, dakota, chyanne, sierra)
Brian n Chrissy

wftright Jan 15, 2006 04:46 PM

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm going to have to rethink this issue. I still like look and performance of the mulch, but if bugs are going to be a problem, I'll need to take steps for mitigation. I may get a special container and start microwaving all of my mulch. Another thought might be to buy a freezer for frozen rodents and to put the mulch in the freezer as well.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Misskiwi67 Jan 15, 2006 09:30 PM

The so-called mites are usually just springtails, and you'll probably even run into them in your bark. They're completely harmless, so honestly, its not as big a deal as people think. I actually want them in my gecko cage...

wftright Jan 16, 2006 12:02 AM

It's good to know that they aren't likely to be a problem. I may do some baking just to see whether baking is a real pain. If it is, I might not worry about it. I enjoy throwing out these questions and seeing the diversity of opinion. I'm learning a great deal from this hobby.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

ajfreptiles Jan 15, 2006 04:30 PM

Bill, I buy a bunch of bags every late summer of cypress mulch from the local garden centers and store in the garage all winter...I have seen on one occassion when the mulch was being used that small tiny nat like insects were flying around...must have been hatching in the cypress mulch. I disposed of that and put in some fresh mulch and have not had a problem. I have heard of baking it but have not seen where it was necessary. I have never seen any other types of bugs in normal cypress mulch. Andy

wftright Jan 15, 2006 04:43 PM

If the gnats are not a problem for reptiles, that's good to know. From what havic is saying, going with the stuff packaged specifically for reptiles isn't gaining me anything. I'll be rethinking this entire issue. Once again, the value of these boards is seen.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

toshamc Jan 15, 2006 06:16 PM

OK - my opinion - Are you really hard up that $15/month is breaking you? LOL - If you like the way you have your tank set up and it works for the snake - then keep doing it - there is no need to change - if it aint broke why try to fix it.

Cypress - yeah - every bag and every brand I've ever gotten from the pet store had bugs in it. Little bit better luck with getting it at the garden store - but they never have it. Nuke it bake it, I have no more room in the freezer can't tell you if that works or not - probably not that may be why everyone says to bake it.

UTHs - yea they overheat - don't ask me how, I'm not an electrician, but with extended use they overheat, crack glass, melt plastic, etc. has nothing to do with power surges, etc. it's just the way they are - put it on some kind of device that will cut the power off in case it happens.

You like your snake - you provide the best home possible for her - and she is spoiled. Congratulations! In all likelihood by the time she reaches 1000 plus grams you will find that most of what you have in your tank is no longer suitable for her and will end up having to redo it anyway. Theres nothing like a lumbering 2000 gram snake bulldozing your nice plants. Welcome to ball python ownership.

Enjoyable read tho!!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

10.35.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.1 Lizard rescued from feline
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

wftright Jan 15, 2006 07:07 PM

Thanks for the reply. I got a chuckle at the way you put things.

As you said, I can pay $15/month/snake to have any kind of bedding that I and they like. One reason that I'm not trying to acquire more snakes is that I like being able to play with the variables as I think best and not worry about spending more than I should. I'll certainly start cooking the cypress before putting it in the cages.

I'm going to investigate the UTH issue more thoroughly. I'll talk to the supplier to see what they say. I'll probably talk to someone in the electrical group at work. I have a friend who is a process control engineer, and she likes snakes. She may have some insights for me. When all is said and done, I'll still end up with a thermostat, but I'll enjoy knowing more about the issue.

The size issue has certainly been on my mind. A bigger snake will need bigger hides. To give her the variety that I like, I'll need more floor space on the bottom of her enclosure. The pet store people said that a 55 gallon long should be enough for an adult ball python. Some caresheets on the web say that a 36" x 24" x 18" cage should be big enough for an adult ball python. They may all be right, but I'll need considerably more space to do things the way that I like to do things. I find it fascinating to offer different options and see what she'll choose. The biggest reason that I have plants is that someone suggested that they provide a bit of cover. Even on their sides, the plants should help break up some of that overhead exposure that is stressful to ball pythons, so she can bulldoze whatever she likes and hide under the downed leaves.

When she gets bigger, I'll be shopping for another enclosure or trying to find someone to help me build one to my specifications. I'd like to have something that is multi-level, but I'm not ready for that challenge. I'll probably upgrade first to the display cages that are available on the web. Maybe one of them will be all that she ever needs. The good news is that I have a couple of years before I must make that decision.

The important thing is that my long post was enjoyable reading.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

jyohe Jan 15, 2006 08:23 PM

use 3 inches thick cypress and wet one end of cage..

done......

40 pounds or whatever at Lowe's .$2.99

.........
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................................................
..................gottaLuvIt!!

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