Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are some photos of a Gulf Hammock Rat Snake. This snake is a color morph of the Gray Rat Snake. At one time it was considered a subspecies of Elaphe obsoleta group (Elaphe obsoleta williamsi). It is not an intergrade of a Yellow x Gray. It is a stable morph. Note that it shows two stripes that run down the lenght of its back. This one came from Terry Parks. I hope you enjoy the pictures.

Hello 'Elaphefan',

The fact that Gulf Hammock Ratsnakes breed true, doesn't mean they're not intergrades. All natural intergrades breed true. In fact, that's exactly what makes the difference between a natural intergrade and a homemade crossbreed. The thing is, if you breed a Grey Ratsnake to a Yellow Ratsnake, you'll end up with something quite similar to a Gulf Hammock. But why should it make any difference to you, as a hobbyist? The Gulf Hammock Ratsnake remains a natural entity, and is to be appreciated and treasured as such by us hobbyists, regardless of it's taxonomical status.

And who's to say what origin a 'true' subspecies like the Grey Ratsnake may have had? And what is a subspecies anyway? I highly recommend reading the articles on Elaphe obsoleta by Burbrink et al (2000, 2001). You don't have to go along with the division of Elaphe obsoleta into 3 separate species, but at least it should make you wonder about what a true subspecies really is, and wether the subspecies concept is applicable to Elaphe obsoleta, or not.

Kind regards, Herman.

Burbrink F.T., R. Lawson & J.B. Slowinski (2000): 'Mitochondrial DNA phylogeography of the polytypic North American Ratsnake (Elaphe obsoleta): a critique of the subspecies concept.' Evolution 54(6): 2107-2118.

Burbrink, F.T. (2001): 'Systematics of the North American Ratsnake Complex (Elaphe obsoleta).' Herpetological Monographs 15: 1-53.

Thank you for your response. I am very familiar with the research that you refered. Burbrink and his team did some groundbreaking research. His use of mitochondrial DNA to show separation between geographic distributions of the Elaphe obsoleta (P. obsoletus) groups was very interesting, but the scientific community has not embraced it due to legitimate criticism. I personally am hoping to see more research done along these lines.

You made the statement that if you cross a Yellow with a Gray; you get offspring that look very much like a Gulf Hammock Snake. While I have never tried to do this, I am sure that you are correct, but there is a major difference. If you cross two of these intergrades, very few of their offspring will look like the parents. This is what you would expect from a dihybrid cross. On the other hand, as I noted in my post, Gulf Hammocks are a stable morph, a fact that you and I both agree on. My problem is with the use of the term intergrade when referring to a stable morph. If you use the term for both natural stable morphs and crossbreeds of two subspecies, then the term intergrade has no meaning. I will lastly point out that they are now considered a natural coloring for the Gray Rat Snake, and are not classified as Yellow / Gray intergrades.

I have not visited Levy Co. Florida where these snakes are found. Maybe a member of this forum can tell us if you find all three types of obsoletae(i), Yellows, normal Grays, and Gulf Hammocks in the Gulf Hammock area.

Again, thanks for the post. We seem to share a common interest

Rick

Photo of a normal Gray Rat Snake

i have a gulf hammock but she doesnt have those two dark stripes down her back. do they normally or is that just a quality of that particular snake?
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"it takes a small person to beat a defenseless animal, and an even smaller person to eat it."

"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
1.0.0 bearded dragon (spaz)
1.1.0 green iguana (zephyr,F and Liz,M)
0.0.1 columbian tegu (diablo)
1.1.0 knight anole
0.1.0 green anole
0.1.0 asian longtail grass lizard
1.1.0 golden gecko
1.0.0 ball python (guinness)
0.0.5 oriental firebellied toad
0.0.1 green treefrog
0.0.1 barking treefrog
0.0.1 cuban masked treefrog
0.0.1 gray treefrog
0.1.0 gulf hammock rat snake (fluffy)
0.1.0 eastern kingsnake (ms. king,kingy)
0.1.0 siberian husky (blue)
1.1.0 ratties (bonnie and clyde)
0.1.0 hedgie (karma)

My readings tell me that most have all four stripes like a Bairds or a Yellow Rat. Mine is still a sub adult and so maybe the other two will still form.

In an earlier post (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=980696,980696) there are pictures of a Gray that some interjected that it might be a Gulf Hammock morph of that snake. All the photos of Gulf Hammocks that I have seen have the same background coloring as the one in my photos. Since I don't live in Levy Co. Florida, I am not the one to say for sure one way or the other.

Besides the Gulf Hammock, I also have some normal Grays. I have two sisters, and one of them is hyper melanistic. Towards the back of her body she is as dark as some of the Black Rats that have been posted on this forum over the years. One feeling that I always come away with after viewing all the morphs of P. obsoletus, nature cooked up something special with those snakes.

Photo of the sisters. Notice how much darker one is then the other.

I've found that the obsoleta from Levy County vary in how much striping they develop. The striping is always more pronounced on the dorsal surface, and often will only be sharp on the anterior third or half of the animal. More often than not, the lateral striping is a series of elongated blotches, similar to your typical gray rat of the Florida panhandle. I don't believe that I have ever personally seen one that had four bold, full length stripes like a yellow rat.

Here's a pic of a fine bairdi. I'm hoping he tapes out at an even 6 feet when he gets his annual spring measurement.

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say here. I was pointing out the difference between a natural intergrade and a homemade crossbreed. Intergrades breed true, and crossbreeds don't. Therefore, the mere fact that the Gulf Hammock breeds true, doesn't mean it's not an intergrade.

I was refering to Burbrink for his critique on the subspecies concept, on which I largely agree, not because I agree with their division of Pantherophis obsoletus into 3 seperate species, because I don't agree with that part at all. I was trying to point out that the Gulf Hammock is a natural entity in it's own right, and should be appreciated as such, nomatter what it's taxonomic status should be. The way I see it, there are no real subspecies in Pantherophis obsoletus, and when it comes to validity as natural entities, the Gulf Hammock is just as good as the Grey Rat or any other so-called subspecies within Pantherophis obsoletus.

Well, we won't agree on the exact meaning of intergrade, but I have a lot of respect for your position. Myself, I would like to see them map the entire genome and use that data along with the mtDNA to look at how closely these snakes are related.

Thank you for taking the time to write. What P. obsoleti if any do you keep.

Thanx. At the moment I own several Black Ratsnake morphs (ultra black, white sided, lavender), some Yellow Ratsnake morphs (white sided, albino blotchless), North Carolina Greenish Ratsnakes, and 'white oak' Grey Ratsnakes. Sixteen specimens of P. obsoletus altogether. I still have to get myself a digital camera so I can post some pix (kind of a low-priority thing). I guess that would have been your next question?

I sold Terry a pair of my '03 Gulf Hammock hatchlings back in Feb of '04. Is it possible that you now have one of these animals? If so, the first pic is of the sire of your snake. This guy is an exceptionally dark individual with these pinkish highlights between the dorsal blotches. I have only collected one other that was as strikingly marked. There is a lot of variation in these snakes. The pic of the lighter male was collected about 1/4 mile from the darker male. This will give you an idea of the range of coloration. I've run across some of these man-made grey-yellow intergrades at herp shows. The eye color is always not quite right. They invariably have more of an orange tint to them. In my experience, Gulf Hammocks have a much calmer disposition than most yellows, glades, and grays.

Here's the lighter male. By the way, if you feed these guys, they will grow. Both of these snakes are pushing 7 feet.

WOW! send me one of those!
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Onyx"

Fantastic specimens, my compliments!

Thanks for the post. Now I know where the snake came from. It is a great little snake. I feed it once a week and it is growing at a good rate. Thanks for the photos. I love the snake. Now, do you know where I can get a CB Dekerts?

Rick