Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently sold my BRB after having him for a year. He was always healthy and a great feeder.. I will cut and paste the body of a message i recieved from the buyer so i can get some input into this, because I am totally baffled as to how a snake can go downhill so quickly.

***couple days after I picked up the Brazilian, I noticed he was moving his head in a restricted manner and periodically gaping his mouth slightly with no sign of muscus discharge, still thinking it might be a respitory problem from the transition, I increased the heat slightly and was watching him closely, then on Friday morning 8 days after I got him he just started circling his cage in the morning with his head half twisted and died later that day, still showing no signs of discharge.

Reminded me a bit of symptoms I've seen with inclusion body disease (IBD), the only other thing I could think of was some possible head trama caused in my care but I see no marks or visible injuries so I'm not sure, I was considering an autotophsy but seeing as how he was quarantined from my green trees and I'm not concerned with my kings having a problem, I don't know if I really want to spend the money.

I'm not upset, I mean the money is not an overwhelming amount to lose, I know that sometimes IBD can lay dormid until a stressfull moment such as moving around in the cold, but for the life of me, I have never seen a snake go down so quickly. Just thought you should know in the event that he was around other snakes of yours, might not be a problem as I'm not even positive of what it was was, but worth keeping an eye out in case something happens with any of your animals***

He snet me photos the day he purchased my snake with it around his young sons neck and told me in the E-mail that his son had gotten bitten by the snake because he grabbed him too tightly... ok, kids will do that... but now I am getting an E-mail that the snake had died? Dont get me wrong, i feel horrible, and now i seriously regret selling him in the first place... He was one of my fav snakes, I just needed the cage space and decided to not breed the rainbow. What could cause that? could being grabbed tightly enough to make the snake bite have caused some sort of trauma?

As i said, he was healthy and all of my snakes that are in my snake room are all healthy and have been since i got them... never once had a problem... Please, all opinions appreciated... I am very concerned into how this happened...

if the kid grabbed his neck hard, and caused him to jerk or twist, it could have dislodged a vertebre, or constricted teh esophogus in some way. or the guy may be bull[bleep]ting you. who knows.

but that would be my guesses.
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1.4 west papuan carpet pythons
2.3 brazillian rainbow boas
0.7 ball pythons
0.2 jungel carpet pythons

From the tone of the e-mail excerpt, I was not getting the idea the buyer was asking for a refund, more of a "heads up, you may have a problem" Could be a "stuff happens" or could be signs of a more serious problem.

IMO, not much you can do at this point, as much as possible, treat your whole colection as quarantined? But if it is IBD, might not show for some time. If it was due to some accident/mishandling etc. you'll never know.

Linda went through a similar experience earlier this year. She had a yearling just up and die in her care. Being associated with a vet and having access to much more than the rest of us, she ran a lot of tests and still found no explanation.
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
4.12 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

A year and a half ago, at the end of a show, my daughter was attempting to bag an adult BRB. She was not paying attention and did not see the snake was getting irritated. The snake tagged her and she dropped it on concrete. Honestly, I didn't see, only heard the snake thud on the concrete, she may have flung it. My daughter was OK, just scared, it was her first snake bite. The snake was fine and is still producing babies.
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
4.12 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I know he didnt say anything about a refund, i jsut feel horrible that somehting like this could have happened. Ad for my collection, all of them are still healthy and the only snake i had aquired before i sold my Rainbow was a Ball python and he isnt in the same room as my other snakes. All are still fine and doing great. I just feel horrible and I am at a loss as to what to do.. i mean, should i refund, or do i have a necropsy done to find out what did the snake in?

IMO, talk to the guy, see where he wants to go. Maybe meet in some middle ground. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of a breeder and I would not want a bad rep!! So far (knock on wood) I have not had any serious problems with any of the babies I have sold. Only minor problems that have been easily resolved.

The necropsy would cost additional money and could easily be inconclusive. Again, talk to the guy, maybe you both feel the same, could be the snake, could be the new envoronment, could have been the handling. Maybe offer a credit towards future purchase if he's interested in what you are planning on producing.

Bottom line, you're definately in the "shades of gray" and are justified in going either way. Work with your customer and come to an agreement you can both live with.
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
4.12 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Hypo / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Hypo (possible super)
1.0 BCI albino het stripe
1.0 BCI salmon hypo
0.1 BCI ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I agree with Dave, talk to the person who purchased the animal and see what direction they want to take.

Necropsy can be used to demonstrate IBD. Maybe it would be worth it to split the cost of the exam. If you decide to go this route, keep the animal in a double ziplock bag in the refrigerator. it will stay good for four days. Do not freeze the animal!

Before you consider necropsy, consider this: IBD runs a fairly short course in baby and juvenile boas. Onset of symptoms and death can be quick. In adults, the disease can linger for a while. Chronic regurgitation and pheumina often accompany IBD. How old is the animal in question?

Something else to consider is that many other things can take on signs of IBD. It has already been implied that a child's reaction to a bite could have caused nervous system damage. Once, I saw an animal suffer similar affects after it had been left in a hot car for too long. Exposure to toxins can also lead to these "star-gazing" symptoms. See if you can find out the details behind how the animal was being kept. Temperature, substrate, cage material, everything.

Whatever course you decide to take, it sounds like both of you are reasonable people. Sorry that you're in this situation. Good luck,

Mike

Well, He was a year when i got him, and I had him just over a year, so he was about 2 years.. maybe slightly more. He was eating a med FT Rat every 2-3 weeks.. he was constantly hungry. As far as regurg, he never has in my care, and has never had a problem with RI or anyhting at all.. was always healthy as far as i know.

I will send an E-mail to the buyer and see what he has planned and wants to do.. thanks all for all that answered.

Sean

Like Dave mentioned, I had one basically drop dead about 3 months ago and still have not found any explaination for how or why it happened. I have chalked it up to just "one of those things". Your situation is different since you sold the snake to someone who had it die in their care.

It adds a whole lot of possibilities when someone is telling you what occurred. I wouldn't say that the info is not correct, but according to one's level of perception and attention to details there could be a fairly large margin of misinterpretation of symptoms.

The tone of the message to me is most like a "heads up" just thought you should know what happened.

What you do about it is another thing altogether. If you didn't offer anything but a live arrival guarantee than any action you take is generous toward the buyer. If you are wanting to work it out beyond the "no longer my responsibility" heading then I would choose to make compensation in porportion to the contacts or attempts to contact you and make you informed of the situation as it happened.

If the buyer wanted complete monetary compensation, IMO, he would not have mentioned anything like IBD, kid squeezed snake, no mucous discharge, "the money amount is not overwhelming".

Probably just a bunch of babling.....but I always have an opinion. I hope your situation is worked out to be satisfactory for the both of you. Sorry your BRB died.

Linda Misch
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When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

Sean,
...I am really sorry to hear about the loss of "your" snake. I do not think an adult BRB can look and act healthy for an extended period and then all of the sudden start showing symptoms of IBD and die within a short period of time. IBD in adult snakes usually causes an extended period of decreased appetite and weight loss and general failure to thrive followed by respiratory symtoms and neurological problems. The symptoms described in the email could more likely have been caused by a traumatic injury or by being overheated or poisoned. There are many people who have experience with other boids but do not understand that these snakes cannot tolerate high temperatures. The email you got from the buyer reads like some other stories I have heard. The snake was doing great and got sold and died soon after. I think it is significant that the buyer wrote a fairly lengthy email to you but did not mention the specific temperature or humidity and what sort of cage he was keeping the snake in. Very occasionally a snake just dies for no reason. Most of the time when a captive snake kas health problems it is because of something that was done wrong by the keeper. If I was you I would not offer any compensation unless the buyer has a necropsy performed and it shows evidence of a chronic health problem. Just to be on the safe side I would keep your snakes under close watch and quarantine for awhile.
Jeff

>>I recently sold my BRB after having him for a year. He was always healthy and a great feeder.. I will cut and paste the body of a message i recieved from the buyer so i can get some input into this, because I am totally baffled as to how a snake can go downhill so quickly.
>>
>> ***couple days after I picked up the Brazilian, I noticed he was moving his head in a restricted manner and periodically gaping his mouth slightly with no sign of muscus discharge, still thinking it might be a respitory problem from the transition, I increased the heat slightly and was watching him closely, then on Friday morning 8 days after I got him he just started circling his cage in the morning with his head half twisted and died later that day, still showing no signs of discharge.
>>
>>Reminded me a bit of symptoms I've seen with inclusion body disease (IBD), the only other thing I could think of was some possible head trama caused in my care but I see no marks or visible injuries so I'm not sure, I was considering an autotophsy but seeing as how he was quarantined from my green trees and I'm not concerned with my kings having a problem, I don't know if I really want to spend the money.
>>
>>I'm not upset, I mean the money is not an overwhelming amount to lose, I know that sometimes IBD can lay dormid until a stressfull moment such as moving around in the cold, but for the life of me, I have never seen a snake go down so quickly. Just thought you should know in the event that he was around other snakes of yours, might not be a problem as I'm not even positive of what it was was, but worth keeping an eye out in case something happens with any of your animals***
>>
>>He snet me photos the day he purchased my snake with it around his young sons neck and told me in the E-mail that his son had gotten bitten by the snake because he grabbed him too tightly... ok, kids will do that... but now I am getting an E-mail that the snake had died? Dont get me wrong, i feel horrible, and now i seriously regret selling him in the first place... He was one of my fav snakes, I just needed the cage space and decided to not breed the rainbow. What could cause that? could being grabbed tightly enough to make the snake bite have caused some sort of trauma?
>>
>>As i said, he was healthy and all of my snakes that are in my snake room are all healthy and have been since i got them... never once had a problem... Please, all opinions appreciated... I am very concerned into how this happened...