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I found Makeda on the bottom of her enclosure with soil in her mouth - thought she was dead. She is so skinny, eyes have sunken and i cannot get her to drink! I am assuming the soil came along with her attempt to eat a FF but I don't know. She is just letting it sit with her mouth open a crack. I put her IN water to try to get her to drink (not submerged but so the water was mouth level)

I am at such a loss - if she is gravid I am afraid the laying will kill her I moved her on July 14th so it has been nearly 2 weeks. I took a bunch of photos this morning and here is one. This is the very position she was in when I found her and other than here eyes opening occasionally there is no movement.

here is a front view. You can see how thin she is. In the other photo don't let her profile think she has any weight on her, she has a high back.

A reminder: she is about 5-6 months old, 1.5" nose to tip of tail,R. brevicaudatus, cb from the Kammers. She was absolutely fine until about two weeks ago when I moved her (July 14th). Some days she seemed better but she has not had anything to drink or eat (until the remenats of soil which is still in her mouth)

I know not many of you have experience with leaf chams but any advice is welcome. I called the only herp vet in the area and he has never seen a leaf cham before so if I bring her in I don't know what he would actually do.
thanks, lele

I would force-feed her a small cricket that has been killed and soaked in water. Use tweezers and get it all the way back in her throat. If she keeps it down, maybe another.....this is just what I would do. It will stress her out but she's got to have water and nutrition. I'm sorry Lele, I feel for ya.

Hi Alan,

thanks. the problem is she is so small. I can't really get a grip on her to force her mouth open. I have tried a toothpick, my very pointy forceps, my fingernail. Unfortunately I don't really have anyone who could help out either. I am going to call the vet again. If this were a baby veiled, jax or other large species how would I go about force-feeding...

lele

>>I would force-feed her a small cricket that has been killed and soaked in water. Use tweezers and get it all the way back in her throat. If she keeps it down, maybe another.....this is just what I would do. It will stress her out but she's got to have water and nutrition. I'm sorry Lele, I feel for ya.

see if you can pull her gular skin down to open lower jaw, the skin under her jaw. Darn they are small huh, hmmmmmmm. This is the only way I can think of. Wish I was there.

maybe use a needle or pin, VERY CAREFULLY, or the eye part of a needle. Or maybe the edge of a credit card.......

I would say try finding a herp vet that knows something about leaf chams. If nothing else, take her to the vet that you were talking about. He may not have any on hands experience with leaf chams, but he might have something available to him that we can't think of right now.
I'm sorry about your leaf cham, Lele. Good luck to both of you.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Have you tried putting her outside to get a little sunshine? This helps my chams alot, sorry I can't be more helpful, I know how it feels when they can't seem to be helped......I had a senegal once who's tongue wouldnt retract two days after I got her, I tried everything, they look at you like "please help me". Hopefully the vet can give you some real help.....

Maybe for hydration you can put her in a hydration chamber, that might help her regain some strength if she's well hydrated. Also, maybe in the mean time and if weather permits, put her outside for some natural sunlight. I've noticed that some natural UV rays and such for an hour or two everyday over a few days can really help a reptile, especially a chameleon, out. Good Luck!

I decided I had to be firm b/c if I didn't try harder she will probably die. I was able to get a tiny silkworm (only have a couple little ones left) into her mouth. I couldn't push it way back so it's head and rear are sticking out each side but she won't eat it. I am hoping that sooner or later she will have to. I am afraid of hurting her if I push it in more.

lele

>>
>>I found Makeda on the bottom of her enclosure with soil in her mouth - thought she was dead. She is so skinny, eyes have sunken and i cannot get her to drink! I am assuming the soil came along with her attempt to eat a FF but I don't know. She is just letting it sit with her mouth open a crack. I put her IN water to try to get her to drink (not submerged but so the water was mouth level)
>>
>>I am at such a loss - if she is gravid I am afraid the laying will kill her I moved her on July 14th so it has been nearly 2 weeks. I took a bunch of photos this morning and here is one. This is the very position she was in when I found her and other than here eyes opening occasionally there is no movement.
>>

yes. Ok, you have to push it all the way Lele. She won't asperate or anything, If at all possible puncture the worm so it will be easier to digest, rip a tare if you can in its skin. Just push the worm down with something that doesn't have a sharp point, an eyedropper would be great, with a tiny drop of water, if you can. The skin in the throat and mouth stretch to accomidate. You dont have to push it all the way down, just mostly into her throat. then massage her gular, throat, area down towards her tummy, trying to help it get in the right direction, this should work. She needs to have her mouth empty enough to close it, y'know, Should work, Pray.
I'll be thinkin bout ya, gotta go for a couple of hours, good luck Lele

Force feeding a cricket is too difficult. I had a female who stopped eating and drinking. My vet prescribed some liquid food that was fed using a blunt syringe. I had to feed her this way for 6 weeks, but she is 100% now. I believe the food was some kind of dog food. As far as the soil goes, do whatever u can to get it out her. once she swallows it i doubht she'll be able to digest it. in the future, spear a grape on the end of a tooth pick. the fruit flies will stay on the grape and your cham will have an easier time eating.

I can't believe this is happening to you...you are such an attentive mom to those little ones. I really wonder what is going on with her??? I hope and pray that she eats that silkie and it stimulates her appetite...I wish there was more I could do for you and her.

Bart and Kaiya are well I hope?

Good luck with Makeda! We're pulling for her.
Kristen

I'm back, how is she Lele?

...I left for a few hours to meet a friend for lunch (had almost cancelled to stay home with her) and when I got home this is what I found

OK, don't know why this didn't come thru...

When I was trying to feed her earlier I noticed she was cold even tho' her temp was fine. I took her outside for a bit and then put her basking light on - at a distance so she wouldn't overheat and had a cooler place to go if needed) but I think it was too late even then. Here is how she looked at noon

>>...just 4 hours later

I am just heartsick b/c I have no idea what the trouble was. I was going to bring her to the vet this evening. I feel as tho' there is something more I should have done - I am just heartsick.

Kaiya and Bart are just fine - what could have happened?? I don;t really expect anyone to answere that as we just can't know. I will bury her in my garden...

lele

I'm truly sorry .
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

I'm so sorry Lele, that pic is the saddest thing.....I hope I didn't help expediate her demise.......I feel terrible.

I can't believe that happened. Will anyone do a necropsy? I can't imagine what could have gone wrong at all.

At least she is not suffering...

Kristen

I've been popping in and out of the forum all afternoon, hoping for some good news!!!
My heart just breaks for you!!! We all know you are such an attentive, loving tiny cham keeper...and did everything you could to help your little girl get well.

It's just SO sad!!!

I wish it could of turned out differently for you, and Makeda.
Try not to feel bad about going out for lunch...it would of been agonizing for you to have been there, and not being able to help her. Maybe Makeda waited until you were gone, before she could let herself go....because she knew your heart was breaking, worrying about her.

{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}} for you...
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Kim

oh lele, i havnt posted earlier because i didnt know to answer as i dont know much about Pygmy chameleons. Now being honest, i didnt look at the second photo, the one what was four hours later, as i would only start crying or get deeply upset. I can imagine what it is and im truly upset
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-Jamie Whitehouse
-corn_snake_123@msn.com
-formally known as corn_snake_123

...I hesitated in posting it but I did it in part to see what is "normal" looking (if there is such a thing). You don't have to look and I understand why you chose not to...

thank you for your thoughts

lele

>>oh lele, i havnt posted earlier because i didnt know to answer as i dont know much about Pygmy chameleons. Now being honest, i didnt look at the second photo, the one what was four hours later, as i would only start crying or get deeply upset. I can imagine what it is and im truly upset
>>-----
>>-Jamie Whitehouse
>>-corn_snake_123@msn.com
>>-formally known as corn_snake_123

...to all of you for your ideas and condolences. I suppose it is probably more difficult with the little ones b/c there is less info on their species and b/c of their size more difficult to treat - this is just speculation. It's strange that there has been so much more leaf cham talk lately and all but John's have had casualities - I hope this is the end of our sadness. I will ask the vet if he'll do a necropsy, it would certainly be helpful to know what happened. I'll keep you posted.

I need to turn my attention to Kaiya and Bart and hope they remain healthy and that the vet can help get the skin from Kaiya's foot. She actually is VERY active - she is the real hunter of the three - no cup-feeding for her! Bart is mellow, Makeda was the one with lots of personality and tolerance for them all (me included!) I can't believe they have been with me for less than 3 months and I'm so attached...it's great to have all of you here. OK, I'm getting weepy so I'm signing off for now
lele

I am very sorry for your loss. I know how it feels to be so attached to the lil guys and then they suddenly die on you. My pygmy also died from egg related internal injuries. She also lived for some days before she succumbed. My pygmy and yours looked exactly the same when sick and when dead. Please do a necropsy on her and tell us why she died. Once again, I am very sorry for your loss.

Best wishes,

Anthony

Lele-

Sorry for coming in so late to your post. I was going to email you yesterday to check in on things but stuff came up I did not get around to it. I am sorry she did not pull through it. The fist pic you posted looked like she was in bad shape. Hopefully you can lean why from the necropsy if the vet will do it for you. I wish the best to the other two.
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John @ Chameleon Paradise
1.1 Ambilobe Panthers
1.1 Nosy Be Panthers
1.1 Sambava Panthers
1.2 Rhampholeon uluguruensis

The vet said he could do a post mortum and maybe send out tissues for further dx. The problem with that is I put her in the freezer which affects the organs. So the PM may be it. She is now in the fridge and we are going tomorrow. He will also see Kaiya and remove her stubborn skin. Again, thanks to ALL of you!

Anthony, interesting that your female looked the same dead. I know that the photo is a bit gruesome and I certainly didn't post it for shock value(!), but rather to see if this is "normal"? The way part of her is dark and part light. She did not show this sort of coloration at anytime. Kristen, how about yours?

Does $80 seem about right for the PM? If he sends anything out it will be $175. It's a lot of money, but if it could help figure out what was wrong...

I will be getting another cb female as the kids just aren't the same without her. It's funny, Makeda hung out with Bart a lot and all three would travel on the higher branches. But Bart and Kaiya are oblivious to each other and are either on the low branches or hiding in the leaves. The whole dynamic changed when Makeda got ill. Heavy sigh

here she is just one month ago

lele

in the picture before she died. I don't remember the large black area, but I didn't examine her. Now I wish I had gotten pic's...but I was pretty grossed out and sad about it.

I'm really interested to hear what the vet finds...I hope he finds something.

Kristen