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My second situation is with another gravid female, Yoko. She is my first chameleon and is in her own cage. She is approx. 11 months old and I have had her since she was 9 weeks old. I dont believe she ever needed to lay infertile eggs or became gravid until the day that Karma and my male, Loc, bred. She did develop some faint blue spots along with some big orange blotches back in october or november, so i added an egg-laying chamber (5 gallon bucket with dirt/sand mix and plant on top) but she never even investigated it. i was worried that she might be egg bound but her behavior never changed and the blue spots faded away.

Just to see what would happen i introduced my male to her the week after he bred with Karma. They bred instantly! and then about 5 or 6 more times that day. The next day she was dark black with a rainbow of colors (blue, orange green) on her so I put her back in her cage and she retained her normal colors. Does this mean she is carying fertile eggs? How could she be gravid if at 11 months old she had never laid eggs before? (i was begining to think she was sterile). She is due to lay eggs between January 20th (day 20) and Jan 30th (day 30). They bred Dec. 31st.

she is eating like a pig, about 10-12 crickets a day. i dust them really well with a calcium and multi-vitamin. i also give her extra water (3cc) with a syringe and she really likes that too.

I just want to know if it is possible that her eggs are fertile even though shes never laid a clutch (fertile or infertile). and is it possible that she could have become gravid in the past and then reabsorbed them without me knowing?

also, i keep her in a screen cage with basking 90-95 F and cool end about 75-80F. With a UV light too. i mist them about 5-6 times a day and offer water wtih a syringe if they want extra. how much water in cc's should have a day? i give them an extra 3cc's of water every day since they dont seem to drink much when i mist them.

any help would be great.

Ray

i cant believe i forgot to state this....they are veiled chameleons.

Yoko 11 months
Loc 9-10 months old
Karma 9-10 months old

sorry! hope this helps some.

Ray

I'm glad that you put an egg-laying chamber in the cage with Yoko. I always put one in every egg-laying chameleon's cage once the female is about 5 months old just to be on the safe side. Some of them can lay eggs earlier than others...and some never lay infertile eggs before the first mating with no problems.

The dark background coloration means that she is either gravid or non-receptive. Because she has never been mated or laid eggs before, I would expect her first batch to be mostly (or partly or all) infertile eggs....but there's no way to be sure. Often when the whole clutch is going to be infertile (or most of it) it can be laid earlier than the average 30 days....and the next clutch can be totally fertile and laid early too. Nothing is written in stone, so it depends on the individual female.

The fact that she has retained her normal colors when back in the cage is normal too. Some keep the dark background and others lose it unless they see another chameleon or even their keeper.

You asked..."How could she be gravid if at 11 months old she had never laid eggs before?"...I'm not a vet so this is just the best way I can explain it (my own opinion of what happens)...a veiled female starts producing eggs at a very young age. IMHO they can retain them for quite a while and not lay them and might very well reabsorb them. (You asked...."is it possible that she could have become gravid in the past and then reabsorbed them without me knowing?" Its not generally thought that they can reabsorb them, but I have had a veiled live to the age of 4 and still never have laid a clutch only to go on to lay fertile eggs after she was mated at that age followed by fertile ones a few weeks later. At one point she was very fat with obvious egg bulges near her back legs but then slimmed down and lost the bulges. The first clutch she laid was mostly infertile....and the eggs were the normal size that infertile eggs always are.) If sterile chameleons are anything like sterile leos, then they can still produce eggs, they just won't be good.

It is possible that her eggs are fertile even though shes never laid a clutch (fertile or infertile)...but as I indicated above, it will be more likely that her first clutch will be infertile.

You asked..."how much water in cc's should have a day?"..sorry, I can't answer that question.

A couple of bits of advice...
When she starts to dig, don't let her see you watching her. If she sees you she may abandon the hole thinking that its an unsafe place to lay the eggs. If this happens often enough she could become eggbound. (Don't worry if she digs more than one hole if she doesn't see you though...that's common. They are looking for the best place to lay them.)

Let her finish filling in the hole after she lays them. Some of them get quite upset if you don't let them finish and return to the branches before you dig them up.

Good luck with her!

thanks for all the great advice. i do not worry about Yoko, i raised her from a tiny little cham and she is very healthy. i just thought it was odd that she never laid any eggs. but you are right, they are all individuals.

now, when she does lay, how will i know if they are fertile? can i candle them like chicken eggs? and how long after her first laying will she lay a second clutch?

thanks for answering all my questions

Ray

You asked..."how will i know if they are fertile?"
With veiled chameleons, infertile eggs are smaller than fertile ones and fertile ones are whiter. Infertile eggs usually have a yellowish tinge. Its like comparing those fancy flavored jellybeans to the slightly larger "normal" jelly beans.

You asked..."can i candle them like chicken eggs?"...If you candle them you need a flashlight with a very narrow beam and you have to be careful not to turn the eggs. I have never candled my veiled eggs, so I can't tell you what to look for.

You asked..."how long after her first laying will she lay a second clutch?" It all depends on what (how many fertile/infertile eggs) she lays in the first clutch. Even then its not a definite. I have had veileds that were mated for the first time lay the first clutch faster than expected as if they were dumping the infertile eggs that were past a point of being able to be fertilized so that they could work on the next clutch that could be fertilized. I have had females lay a clutch and then not lay another one for well over the 30 days that is said to be normal...so even this is not something that is written in stone.

You said..."thanks for answering all my questions"...you are welcome! I know what its like not to have anyone who can answer questions and I hate to see anyone else have that problem.

well Yoko seems to be doing very well, she is spirited! she will bite and hiss anytime time i try and feed her, haha. how do you feel about feeding superworms to adult chameleons? i know she could deff. take them, she is large enough. but are they good for chams? and can you gutload them?

Ray

I'm glad to hear that Yoko is doing well!

I have fed super worms to my chameleons for many years...and silk worms and wax worms too for that matter (but wax worms are fatty so they should only get them once in a while). The wider the variety of insects you can feed to your chameleon, the better (provided that you chose non-toxic ones).

You asked..."but are they good for chams? and can you gutload them?"...yes to both questions. I gutload them with the same things that I feed my crickets and turtles/tortoises. I know it works and that the insects are well gutloaded because I have done this for years and even have a self-sustaining colony of them in one of my turtle tanks (they go from adult through all the stages and I end up with adults again)...means I don't have to worry about the turtles getting a little protein. I also have a colony of crickets in one of my other lizard cages that has been there for years now. To stop them from getting too crowded I keep the substrate dry for a while and then when the number of insects goes down, I moisten some of the substrate and they start reproducing again. (WARNING...since I have NO substrate in my chameleon cages in the interest of their health, the insects don't usually reproduce in their cages....I was just telling you this to let you know that what I feed the insects must be good for them since they are reproducing healthily on that diet.

Waiting to hear that you have eggs.

I got Yoko two new plants today in town. They are large dwarf schefalarea (sorry for the spelling), one is varigated. I see a lot of these plants in peoples photos online, so i am assuming they are safe? I normally just use pothos, but she strips them bare so fast.

According to my time-line, she was bred Dec. 31st. so this weekend is her 20 day mark on when i should put the egg chamber in the cage right? and then hopefully next week sometime she lays eggs.

She drank a lot of water today, took her 3cc from the syringe and then ran everywhere drinking when i misted. i took pics, i just have to install the software on my computer.

i use herptivive calcium and multivitamin (made by rep-cal) to dust her food with. I use the calcium twice a week and the mulit vitamin daily. Is this ok or too much? and have you heard of a product made by sandfire dragon ranch, "Chameleon Dust". It claims to be made just for chameleons needs. what do you think of this?

i do not think Yoko will give me a problem...it is Karma i am very worried about. I called my local vet, he says he is not certified to work with exotics and really doesnt feel comftorble offering advice. but he says if she is suffering, he can perform the euthasnia

Ray

I normally use pothos, so I can't be sure if all schefleras are safe or not.

I always have a place for an egglaying chameleon to dig to lay her eggs in the cage from the time she is about 4 months on...that way there's less chance to miss the date that she might lay eggs.

Often a few days before a veiled lays her eggs she will drink a lot.

You said..."i use herptivive calcium and multivitamin (made by rep-cal) to dust her food with. I use the calcium twice a week and the mulit vitamin daily. Is this ok or too much? and have you heard of a product made by sandfire dragon ranch, "Chameleon Dust". It claims to be made just for chameleons needs. what do you think of this?"...I have used Rep-cal calcium, calcium with D3 and their vitamins for several years now. I live in a cool area and the chameleons are rarely outside, so they get UV light from bulbs almost exclusively. For adult veileds, I dust twice a month with calcium/D3 and twice a month with vitamins and about 4 times a month with calcium. I also gutload my insects well. Most of my veiled females live to be 7 and most of the males live to be 8 ...but I also don't breed the females much. I restrict their diet to some extent and their temperatures are not in the high end of what is recommended. Getting this balance has taken a lot of work and anyone who attempts it needs to know what they are doing. I don't know anything aobut "Chameleon dust".

I'm sorry that Karma is not doing well. I don't know how to tell you if she's suffering or not...the decision will be between you and the vet. Please DO NOT just freeze her. Its painful. There are recommendations on the net for euthanizing chameleons because of their slow metabolizm it has to be done differently than for most animals.

My thoughts are with you for Karma and hopes for Yoko's safe eggelivery.

Ray

thanks so much for the info. i'll try and find a link to this chameleon dust stuff. it claims you can use it on every feeding. the calcium level is not nearly as high as the rep-cal brands though.

also, any thoughts on ExoTerra liquid supplement brands? Such as calcimize, a liquid calcium supplement, and Electrodize, a liquid D3 supplement, both get added to water.

i think Yoko will do just fine, if Karma can do it then Yoko deff. can! although, Yoko is 3/4 larger then Karma, does this mean she will lay more eggs? I was only expecting 10-15 eggs from Karma, shes so tiny! (only about 3.5 inches without tail) and Yoko is like a good 6 inches. Karma suprised me with the 32 eggs! yikes!

Ray