Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I have had my Algerien (Jacques)for about a month and a half now(from doug dix at deer fern farms) he is very active when awake and big sleepy head when he sleeps!

I was just wondering if any of you guys'uros like to jump from high places, mine has no fear! he loves to climb up to the top of his cage, on the side of it(screening) or to his basking spot (it's 4 ft. high) and then he'll impatiently do what we call his "death drop" to the bottom. He'll climb right back up to do it again! when he wants to go down he doesn't care! he has plenty of branches and a staircase of firewood and all sorts of ways to get down from the high places, but he doesn't want to waste his precious time trying to escape i guess.

I worry that he will get hurt. Maybe I shouldn't b/c he is wild caught.. yet their tummies are so soft and he seems so much more delicate than my beardies. if Jacques keeps jumping off stuff like this will he get hurt? Is this normal or is he just eccentric?

~kristen

-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

That's one of several reasons I don't have screen tops to my cages. Instead I replace them with plywood and arrange fixutres/doors on those for handling and control.
My macfads, ocellateds, and ornates all have spend time jumping off of/at things but they don't generally get an opportunity to fall that far (18" tall cages). If you were talking about a more normal cage and didn't say it was a 4 ft fall I'd probably say don't worry about it, but you might rethink things and reduce the potential. I've seen the behavior subside, but these guys DO have all day to try things and once they have an idea they really seem to chase it pretty hard.
Part of no fear might have to do with poor depth perception. I don't believe they can judge distance very well (if you ever try to hand-feed them you'll understand) as their eyes are mainly mounted on the sides of their head. The animal may not understand exactly what it's trying to do. I've had some try to jump into background picture scenery and also flat into glass.
-----
uromastyx geyri (Saharan/Nigerian), hardwickii (Indian),
macfadyeni (Somalian), ocellata (Sudanese), ornata (Ornate), benti pseudophilbyi

lol, my goodness, I guess they don't have depth perception!

Yeah, they cage is a screened dog carrier (One of the big ones a golden retreiver or shepard would fit in) so It's kinda big.

We have a smaller and less high glass critter tank I guess we could put him in, but i'd feel bad cus he has soo much space now.

Do you think if I put carefresh bedding(it's soft fluffy stuff) on the bottom of the cage he could stay in there, maybe it'd give him a soft surface to land on at least... or do you think i should move him ?

~Kristen
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

>>lol, my goodness, I guess they don't have depth perception!
>>Yeah, they cage is a screened dog carrier (One of the big ones
>>a golden retreiver or shepard would fit in) so It's kinda big.

I don't know how you would be hitting even close to their preferred temperature ranges in a container like this. You mentioned how tame your animals were and lots of "around the house" places you keep them. Uros will seem particularly tame if they're cold. You're dealing with a wild animal and it doesn't sound like you've attained a point where you are even seeing its "natural" behavior in a captive environment. What are the hotspot and ambient temperatures you're providing in this container?

>>We have a smaller and less high glass critter tank I guess we
>>could put him in, but i'd feel bad cus he has soo much space
>>now.

Would you be feeling bad because he's in a smaller safer environment or because of some fatal/crippling injury? Either/or...

>>Do you think if I put carefresh bedding(it's soft fluffy
>>stuff) on the bottom of the cage he could stay in there, maybe
>>it'd give him a soft surface to land on at least... or do you
>>think i should move him ?

Not to be harsh, but from what it sounds like (from here and your other posts) I really think you need to spend some time rethinking your methods of containment and husbandry in general. Check out of the care sheets that are offered by the various Uro breeders/site sponsors and start by treating them as requirements. Once you understand the animals a bit (months not days or weeks) then consider variations.
Also mentioned was how your Uro keeps escaping. This should be one of your top priorities to get under control. A lost animal coudl be a dead animal for many reasons. You've also indicated you understand that it shouldn't be in with your dragons for safety/health reasons and yet you allow it to be. This should also be a top priority.
-----
uromastyx geyri (Saharan/Nigerian), hardwickii (Indian),
macfadyeni (Somalian), ocellata (Sudanese), ornata (Ornate), benti pseudophilbyi

I, too, don't mean to be harsh. But, it sounds like your excitement about all the "cuteness" stuff is outweighing your attention to good husbandry. There's nothing cute about a dead Uro.

I second that, jumping to ones death is not cute, and that cage set up is sooooooo off.

You REALLY don't want to keep Uro's and Beardies together. Beardies have a type of protozoan in their guts (coccidia) that are highly transmitable and can cause really horrible diarrhea and death to other pets that regularly come in contact with their feces. The misconception that they can be kept together comes from one of the more common Beardie manuals having pictures of Beardies and Uro's cohabitating.
Also, there is a good chance that leaving Uro's and Beardies together may lead to a fight, which I have personally seen the results of a few years ago. This fight lead to a female Uro having a broken jaw that required surgery, anti-biotic injections (which you as the owner would have to administer), and a lengthy quarantine. Total cost in dollars over $750.00. (The cost of having to cope with your own negligence, well you can only guess)
As far as cage dimensions, temperature ranges and hides, Douglas Dix's website: www.deerfernfarms.com should tell you all you need to know. The Uros that I keep stay in 4'x2'x2' (singles) and 5'x3'x2'(pairs) plywood or fabricated enclosures. I wouldn't recommend keeping either a juvenile or an adult in anything smaller.
Not to be mean, but for the sake of your Uro's health, you might want to do a bit more research on his needs and requirements.

hey guys, I appreciate the concern, but I'm not stupid.

I Purchased my w.c. algerien FROM Doug Dix and I have read EVERYTHING on his site, but thanks for reminding me.

I have spoken with Doug several times regarding how my uro is doing/ questions I had since I received him over a month ago, and he's told me everything sounds fine.

To clarify a few things first of all... I am aware that the cage he is in is a little big. I said before that it is 4 feet tall. that is not true, i wrote that wrong. I just re-measured it- The cage is 4 feet long by 3 feet wide and is 3 feet TALL. so as it is still tall, it is not as high as I previously said. Sorry for the typo. Yet if you read what Doug Dix has set up for his uros, he says that their "pens run approx. 4' long by 2 1/2'deep by 2' high" (I'm quoting from his caresheet!) Thus I don't see how my uro in a 3 ft. high enclosure is a problem. Plus, Doug also states regarding cage size to quote "Shoot for as large a cage as you have space for," and that is what we have done!
http://www.deerfernfarms.com/Uromastyx_Care.htm
- paragraph 3 under 'Housing.'

About the basking temps in Jacques' cage, I can assure you that they are high enough! I don't appreciate you guys saying things like "there's nothing cute about a dead uro." that was a little harsh. I know they are inactive when they are cold. When Doug shipped him to me he said he'd be cold and inactive when I first received him due to the lack of real heat in the box, and he WAS cold, and barely moved. He said how their bodies kind of slow down when they aren't warm enough.

I have also seen immobile/emaciated uros at petstores like petco where they keep uros at room temp and feed them lettuce and crix!! Trust me, I know better and my little boy is healthy.

Jacques has plenty of ways to reach his basking spot, which is about 2.5 feet off the ground. HIS BASKING SPOT REACHES 125 DEGREES FARENHEIT!! I KNOW this because I have an electric thermometer and I moniter the temps. On Doug Dix's care sheet it says that their bask spot is to be 110 to 120, so I'm sure 125 is good. Jacques likes to bask there until he gets too hot, he'll start to pant sometimes and thats when he'll move to a lower branch or get down from the basking spot.

His cage temp on the coolest side is between 80 and 85 degrees. Once again I have a thermometer to measure this. This is the side where he likes to eat and nap in his lasagna box.

I will post a picture of Jacques as soon as possible, i have no scanner so it has to be a camera phone pic.

He is now 8 and 1/4 inches long and he is growing. Jacques has grown over 1/4 inch these past few weeks, and I have seen new tail form. He has also put on weight, he was just about 1.5 oz in december and now he is almost 2 oz. He eats his supplemented veggies every day, and he is VERY active... when he's awake that is! He does alot of climbing, he doesn't like to be held, and runs very fast!

Regarding his escaping from his cage, it only happened twice. He snuck out of a crevasse below the cage door and the floor and we have since put an end to that! We blocked it shut and he hasn't gotten out since.

Concerning his contact with our 2 young beardies: Jacques IS NOT KEPT with them!! He is in his OWN cage all day! nor does he sleep with them. I have a bed for him that he sleeps in and they never go near it. Once in a while before bed I let everyone on my chest and he might snuggle up to one of them, but he only gets to say 'hi' for a sec and then he's off to bed. The beardies are NEVER left alone together with Jacques out of the cages! I KNOW that beardies have been known to nip at uros. I love all of my animals VERY much and I would NEVER want anyone to get hurt!

I hope that this clears up some confusion.

If you all think that his cage is too big, i could move him to a glass tank that I have , but it's only 2.5x1x1 and isn't that too small?

~Kristen
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

well yeah people around here kind of are the uro police. they take their animals very seriously and really try to reiterate that to other people. i know uros vary but my malis for sure would kill themselves in something 4 feet high. they are about as graceful as an elephant on roller skates. some species, from what i have heard, are better climbers than others. stew my hardwicki can definitely climb better than the malis and xoco is too spastic to do anything but run.

anyway, i think what doug is saying is alot of floor space is good but maybe not so high unless you can make secured layers throughout the cage. i think everyone is concerned about him breaking his back or leg or something. there is a forum on here for cage designs that could help you think of ways to deal with the height.

but to be brutally honest, you did come off as "oh they are so cute i just had to have them" but i just think your zeal for them was misconstrued. i love all my babies to death and probably kiss their heads a 1000 times a day, so i am right there with you on the whole cute and cuddly thing
-----
vonnie
***The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
— Mark Russell***

yeah, once again, the uro's cage is NOT 4 feet high, it is 3 FEET high, just to clarify. And I'm going to be going out today looking at new cages, we're gonna try to get one with less height.
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

Kristen,

If you truly understood the proper requirements of uromastyx, you would know that it is not the size of the enclosure- it is the type of enclosure. While a proper basking spot temperature might be achieved in your enclosure, most people who work with uromastyx know that it would be next to impossible to achieve the proper gradient temperatures needed in a dog kennel that is covered with screen. In my opinion, this type of enclosure is not suitable for desert animals with high heat/low humidity requirements such as uromastyx. I am curious, how many light fixtures do you have on this enclosure, how are they attached, and what size bulbs are you using?

Here is a comment I found a little confusing:

“I have seen new tail form

Are you saying you think your uromastyx has added more tail whorls since you have had him?

You state in your most current post the uros are not kept with the bearded dragons, they do not sleep together, and the bearded dragons do not go near the uros bed. However, here are some comments you made in a previous post:

“have two beardies also and just got a young uro. They all get along great.. the male was a little skeptical at first of the little uro but now they are all buddies. They love to cuddle and sleep together at night.”

It wasn’t until you heard criticism that you recanted with this:

“Sometimes the uro escapes and I find him sound asleep cuddled up next to my female! I know they arent supposed to have contact, but they do like each other and it's hard cus it's so cute. --But my uro for the most part (rare times when he gets out)is in his own cage all day. At night he might say 'hi' to the beardies, they sleep on our pillow, but the uro has his own separate bed (in a clementine box and I even made him a little quilt) on the night table. So they sleep separate too. (yeah I'm a little obsessed)”

The only thing I can assume from these contradicting statements is that the female bearded dragon must be escaping at the same time the uro is escaping and they are meeting up somewhere to cuddle and sleep together.

Here is another comment regarding Doug that I think needs to be clarified:

“He captures them from the wild and breeds them so he knows best ”

Doug himself does not capture them in the wild. Doug buys the uromastyx that are imported.

Kristen, there appears to be some inconsistency in your statements so I can certainly see why you are getting the feedback that you are. I would suggest refocusing your efforts on setting up a suitable environment for your uromastyx including what Doug has advised on not allowing contact between the uromastyx and bearded dragons.

Jeez, you guys give me such a hard time!

I'm not sure what tail "whorls" are, though I've heard them mentioned.. No I meant that his tail has grown, in length, their tails have those spikes and new spikes have come out. I don't know what you mean by 'whorls.'

As for doug capturing the uros in the wild, I know HE does not do it personally, but he has them caught, i just figured you knew what I meant, I don't always clarify every little thing I say that precise I guess. I know that he does not catch them himself. He told me over the phone that he has someome trained that he sends out into the feild to collect specimens for him, so thanks, I'm aware of this.

When I said that the beardies and my uro were "all buddies" I meant that they get along, when we first got the uro my beardie was giving him the evil eye (from in his own cage). But after a few days the beardies started to not pay much attention to him. They'll glance at him in his cage if he rustles or when he snuggles in his box(he makes a scratching sound when he curls up) but they aren't preoccupied with his presence. That is what I meant by saying that they get along.

About the uro and the female beardie sleeping together... I only found them like that ONCE!! okay?!! the uro has his own place that he sleeps SEPARATE from the beardies. They see each other before going to bed (beardies sleep on the pillow) but they DO NOT COME INTO CONTACT with each other. the only time they did was accidental , when jacques got outof his cage, and like i said, it only happened twice.

For his lights, he has a 150watt Zoo-med heat bulb over him and a UVA/UVB bulb over him(i beleive it is also zoo-med)There is also a UV bulb over him that I ordered from Doug(I think it's a "repti-sun" or something) Sorry I didn't save the boxes they came in so I can't say exactly what they are.
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

“their tails have those spikes and new spikes have come out”

This is interesting. My uromastyx seem to keep the same number of whorls and spikes that they were hatched with. The whorls and scales just appear to grow with age.
Where are these new spikes surfacing on the tail?

A whorl is the individual band of scales (including the spiky scales) that make up the tail. Whorl count differs and can range from 9-36 (give or take) depending on the species.

Are your UVB bulbs actually mercury vapor bulbs that produce a lot of heat or the compact fluorescent type?

yeah, so a tail 'whorl' is a row? Yeah, he's grown a whole new row of tail.. if that makes any sense.

the UV bulbs are flourescent
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

sorry, i forgot to add that the new row of spikes is at the tip of his tail(the tapered end), the end of course.. i don't know how he'd grow a new row at the beginning!!

So do they usually not grow new rows or whorls? I don't really know anything about their tails!

i just mentioned the tail growth to show that he's growing

-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

I recieved a phone call from a friend saying I should check out this post to correct some misinformation. I'm having a hard time following a lot of the discussion as it jumps around but in a nut shell let me add the following:

1) I don't personally collect Uromastyx from the wild nor do I have people paid by me to do so. I do know several of the collectors/exporters in Africa and do occasionally discuss with them what species I'd be interested in obtaining and where they are located as well as how to best care for them once collected so that they come into the country as least stressed as possible. In return they may give me a heads up when a good group is headed to the U.S. and give first dibbs on the specimens I'm looking for but they are not my employees or otherwise associated w/ Deer Fern Farms. I WISH I had people trained in N. Africa to collect a few of the more interesting species for me personally but it just isn't practical. We don't direct import anything from the wild as in the longrun, we don't fell it is a good business practice. We do try to import captive bred stock from overseas but even this is hard to do directly (we usually go through others who do this full time so it's much more effecient). Direct importing animals is risky at best and the monetary savings are really just an illusion. It's only practical for the rarer species that might not be otherwise available to us.

2) I do have people I have personally trained to examine Uromasytyx groups AFTER they arrive in the U.S. so as to individually select specimens for me at the main importation facilities. This isn't a money-saving method either as we have to pay the importer extra for the privelege of cherry picking plus I have to pay a premium per animal for my pickers time. But it hopefully gets us better quality animals and they get handled better on their way to us so we fell it's worth it.

3) As far as caging, it's unclear to me what cage this Uro ended up in, but we recommend 4' x 2' by at least 18" tall for most species. Taller is ok but generally is wasted space and makes it harder to clean the cage etc. unless the cage opens from the front. Front opening cages are the best to use if possible and the cage should best be at eye level if you want your Uro to tame as well as possible. A larger cage, as in this case, is also usually fine for all but hatchlings. In general, the more floor space the better as long as you can meet the other houseing requiremrnts (correct temperatures throughout the cage being a biggie and this does get harder in larger cages). A dog kennel would be pretty hard to make work but having never seen this cage, it's hard for me to judge what she's got set up. It's very easy for people to give her grief but I'd suggest seeing the cage before I went too nuts on her. The animal seems to be doing well which ultimately is the true test of how well it is being taken care of. I would strongly advise AGAINST using the smaller tank. It's not even close to being large enough to be safe.

4) Uros and bearded dragons can NOT be housed together dispite what some earlier books state. Sooner or later the bearded WILL attack the Uro and it usually is a head bite which if not stopped quickly, is generally fatal. Also the disease transmission issues are real - Beardie bacterial fauna make Uro's sick. Also their requirements are too different - the insects and water routinely in the cage are both problems for the Uro's.

5) Her daytime cage temperatures are fine. The key is a good gradient in the cage from 120F to 85F. 125F is ok for the basking spot again as long as the overall temperature gradient is present in the whole cage. Some people go higher but there is absolutely no advantage to going over 120F and your start risking burns.

6) Uros don't grow extra tailwhorls with age, they just get larger. Odds are some of the smaller ones just seem more obvious so look like new ones.

Hope this helps!

Douglas Dix,

Deer Fern Farms
www.deerfernfarms.com
Link

Here are some pics of Jacques
I just took them this a.m.
He is basking in this first one and in the second, I just woke him up..

-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

He looks good! Just so you know...I just read on this forum because a couple of people here are just too craaaaazy. As long as your Uro is happy and healthy dont let em get to you.

>>As long as your Uro is happy and healthy dont let em get to you.

The people who are so "craaaaaazy" are ony trying to help *keep* the uro happy and healthy. It might start out that way, but if less-than-optimal conditions persist, it won't stay healthy for long. It's hard when someone criticizes your set-up, but it's not personal - it's to help their husbandry improve.

Kristin, I think it's good that you're going out to look at other types of caging. The dog kennel might suffice for now, but switching to something else soon is a very good idea. The kennel just has too many problems (outlined by Debb) to be a good long-term housing choice. Also remember that if your UVB bulb is the fluorescent Reptisun (I wasn't totally clear from your post if the UVB was the fluorescent), it needs to be within 6-12" of Jacques to be effective, otherwise, it's just light. If your UVB is a Zoo-Med Powersun, then it needs to be more like 18" away.

Whorls are the rows of spikes. They have the same number at all times (barring tail injury), and they don't grow new ones like rattlesnakes gain rattles.
-----
Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

Your response was nice. Other people have a habit of attacking people. It normaly sounds too personal. Some people are new and would like help in a way that doesnt always sound like they are being ganged up on. Your post is a helping hand without sounding like an attack. Thank you!

yeah, he has a zoomed uv bulb directly over him(about 9in. away from his basking spot) and a reptisun flourescent, it's about 1ft. away, but I can move the reptisun closer.

Really, so the 'whorls' are rows? and they never increase in number? that is very odd because he has a new row. When we got him it was the very tip of his tail and then it got white, like the scale piece was about to shed, and now a new row of spikes has pushed it's way out of it and it's expanded, almost like the way a flower blossoms out of a bud.. so is this rare for the tail to grow lengthwise apparently? I just assumed it was normal b/c my beardies tails grow length wise, so the uro's tails only widen?
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

does anyone else here have an algerien? Just wondering
Doug said that there's only a handful in the US right now... if any of you guys have one let me know!

According to dougs algerien info, they are supposed to have 17 to 18 'distinct' whorls. I just counted and jacques has17, including the new tip one...the first 16 are really spikey so i guess that'd make em 'distinct'. he does have other rows, about 3 at the beginning , thick part of the tail, but those don't count i guess because they are just lines but not really spikey and protruding like the other 16/17 .

Man, when he gets heated up, he is SO FAST! I can barely hold the little guy!

-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

"Doug said that there's only a handful in the US right now

When the first U. a. acanthinura started coming in (sept 05) there was speculation that there might not be more shipments. Doug added information about this species to his site at that time. Since that time, more a. acanthinura have come in and I would guess the number to be a couple hundred or more. (others feel free to chime in if you feel these numbers are off).

I received some uros from the first shipment and the whorl counts are two at 16 and two at 17.

Thomas Wilms, who many feel leads the way in uromastyx taxonomy, cites this particular subspecies as having 16-20 whorls.

hmmm... ok, i see, I must have misunderstood what he said at the time.

so you have 4 algeriens I take it? Are you breeding them? Just wondering.

I'd like to see pics of them If you don't mind, I'm assuming yours are adults.

Yeah, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can, Jacques is my first uro you know! We picked that name because Algeria is a francophone country, and having been a french major as an undergrad, I just couldn't help myself!

So, Jacques says "SALUT!" to your algeriens!

~Kristen

-----
1.1 Bearded dragons (Kunja and Lily)
1.0 Algerian Uromastyx (Jacques)

Thank you for your advice!

Kribby, you've held your ground well. Your thoughts are a bit out of step with mainstream husbandry but your persistance is a sign of a trooper. Stay in there & keep contributing!!