Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.
I don’t understand the relationship your proposing between the in vitro characteristics of albumen or the pH of albumen and the preferred pH of the incubation substrate. Perhaps you can explain that in more detail.
What value are you hoping to get by knowing the pH of reptile egg albumen?
Mark
In nature there is a wide range of pH values in the soil some soil is Acid and some soil is Base (Alkaline). Reptile eggs unlike chicken eggs wick up moisture from the soil or substrate on which they sit. I am sure the forming embrio is sensitive to changes in pH. I have just started looking into the affect of Alkaline (moisture)in egg albumen. High alkali seems to make the eggs albumin more viscus hence the ability to draw or transpire more moisture quicker. Milk snakes have been known to lay eggs under cow pies which would lean toward high acid. At what level base or acid would be toxic for an egg? Maby there is a hidden key in there somewhere.
-----
I am still not clear.
Perhaps you could state your hypothesis clearly.
Mark
My hypothesis is two fold. First point: water wicking into the egg that is base (alkaline) is affecting the albumin in the egg by making it more viscous. The egg will experience greater moisture loss or become flooded depending on the relative humidity in the incubator. Water wicking into the egg that is acid may keep the albumin in a state that is more stable for the embryo hence minimal moisture loss and absorption. Second point: My gut feeling is that once the albumin is compromised (as in more viscous) that the embryo will be compromised. Since the embryo has a blood support system my hunch is that if we were to start testing eggs that failed there would be a correlation between the pH of the albumin and the embryo or fetus. Toxic blood based on the bloods pH level. I know death itself will affect the pH level in the dead animal’s blood so I will be looking for answers in the albumin.
-----
"Since the embryo has a blood support system my hunch is that if we were to start testing eggs that failed there would be a correlation between the pH of the albumin and the embryo or fetus."
If I undertand your statement, I disagree with it. There are numerous reasons to explain the failure of an egg to hatch ranging from maternal nutrition to egg retention due to the lack of appropriate nesting opportuntities, to environmental factors (temperature, moisture (unrelated to pH)) to spontaneous developemntal problems unrelated to environment. I don't see a reason to correlate failure of an egg to hatch with an undemonstrated hypothesis of low pH substates supporting reptile egg development.
A couple of more thoughts...desert soils (relating your theory to Gila egg incubation) would not tend to have an acidic pH (one would expect a neutral or slightly alkaline pH). Also, I have plenty of data to demonstrate that Gila and beaded eggs hatch very successfully with a substrate of neutral pH.
Also, I am aware of at least one study that shows a decrease in hatchling mass (by 28%) and a decrease in hatchling hardiness incubating in acidic soils compared to controls (neutral pH).
If you or anyone else disagrees with my statements please speak up--I'd welcome the discussion.
Mark
My question to you is has there been a study of the effect of pH in soil on reptile eggs? If there is a buildup of organic matter from feces and other organic matter in burrows organic matter would be decidedly acid. Does anyone know if they dig their own burrows or do they use existing burrows that may have been used for 50 years? I plan on studying the underground dynamic. Are you saying that pH in the soil would not affect the eggs albumen no matter how high or low? Maybe there is a perfect soil pH for a given egg? I have been hatching desert snake eggs; Sub ocs, Coachwhips, Grey Banded Kingsnakes and so on with perfect results in coconut. Thank you for the feedback……..Bill
-----
I dont know of any studies that show a Gila using an exsisting burrow for nesting? That would be a large risk to the survival of the eggs. All I have read is Gilas dig there own nest sites and choose a site that is favorable for survival of the clutch, not open to preditors as an exsisting burrow would be.
Robert
“My question to you is has there been a study of the effect of pH in soil on reptile eggs?”
Yes there is, I referred to it in my previous post.
“Does anyone know if they dig their own burrows or do they use existing burrows that may have been used for 50 years?”
There is no doubt that Gilas use existing burrows for shelter as well as for nest sites. However, I have little doubt that gravid females using existing burrows are modifying them to create a nest chamber. In other words, they would dig a new nest chamber. Again, I seriously doubt that Gilas are laying eggs in acidic environments.
“Are you saying that pH in the soil would not affect the eggs albumen no matter how high or low?”
What I am saying is that there is experimental data demonstrating low soil pH has a NEGATIVE effect on egg water exchange, hatchling size and locomotor performance. At a substrate pH of 4, eggs absorbed LESS water and final egg size and weight was lower than at neutral pH.
This appears to be contrary to what I understand of your suggestion.
Comments?
Mark
Here is a picture of a chicken egg on the left and a reptile egg on the right. The calcium has been completely removed from both by soaking them in vinegar. Notive the reptile egg shell on the right is self supporting even hollow and NO calcium. Mostly membraine.
-----
Could egg failure be due to a lack of "absorbed" calcium in the females diet?
-----
Help, tips & resources quick links
Manage your user and advertising accounts
Advertising and services purchase quick links
