Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Is this snake overweight (or not)???

BlueKing Jan 18, 2006 04:35 PM

Checked on her today, (she's been brumating since mid-Nov.). Believe it or not, this animal only eats a small meal about once a week. The body shape of this animal is unique, though. It is shaped like a somewhat flattened "D". She looks as if though she's overweight, but if you look closely, there is no skin showing between the scales (a sure sign of obesity). She is a 03' Pinellas county, Florida Eastern King (with a "flat" wide-shaped body) that I picked up from Len Krysko when I visited him back in 03'. She's over 3 foot long and should produce some interesting babies. Thanks for looking. . .

Zee

-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Replies (27)

coolhl7 Jan 18, 2006 05:32 PM

she is fat by wild caught standards but definitely looks like a healthy chunky female by CBB standards if you know what I mean. I hate pinheads but she looks good and that body weight will come in real handy for breeding.

snakesunlimited1 Jan 18, 2006 06:56 PM

Zee can you get a pick of her stretched out, or even better, one with her in one hand with her rear half hanging down? I am leading somewhere if you want to follow.

For now I will say it is interesting that she is a female in good health that was just too small to breed this year.

Later Jason

BobBull Jan 19, 2006 08:03 AM

I think, like people there are different body shapes. If she was human she would probably be "pear" shaped .
-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.1 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

FR Jan 19, 2006 09:35 AM

Of course its overweight. But so what. If your interested, you really need to do some disections to understand fat content. You would be surprised that even skinny snakes carry lots of fat. A snake like that one, is carrying lots and lots of fat.

In the old days, fat young snakes had problems. But now days, that snake will have oppertunity to use most of her fat(energy) thru reproduction.

Consider this, it can use up internal fat, the fat bodies inside the body cavity. But the external fat, along the back does not get used for reproduction, and will become very unpleasent looking over time.

Does that occur in nature, yes, but rarely. In nature it would be the lucky ones, hahahahahahahahahaha.

Back to the top, I would guess that snake is carrying over 50% of its total weight in fat. That cannot be all that healthy, I imagine it would effect its longevity. Like it only living 15 or 20 years instead of 35 or more. hahahahahahahahaha OK, 15 or 20 is better then most. So it comes down to you, if you like it, then fine. If you don't, fine too. All in all, it may be better being fat then skinny. But there is a inbetween to consider.

OK, all the above is rubbish, the answer is yes, its overweight(the question you asked) cheers

justinian2120 Jan 19, 2006 11:04 AM

to piggyback here,i really agree with fr on this one-it's totally relative-those of us that get to go to lots of herp shows,etc.,we are conditioned to seeing all these overfed(don't you love the term 'powerfeeding'?) snakes looking like sausage links,in part as an attempt at rushing the snakes to reproductive maturity.so i think fat snakes have become more of the norm...it's funny to see,in the wild,young snakes of the same year and species as captive bred ones,yet the wild ones are bigger all around(i.e. longer,better proportioned) while their captive peers are just fatter....in this case there just is no duplicating mother nature,at least not yet...i know ,not being restricted to the confines of even a roomy enclosure plays the part here,but it is always amazing to see nonetheless...i just avoid getting to the point of visible interstitial skin,at the very least,in my captives...also,remember the variation in different genera's metabolism-lampropeltis compared to,say,pituophis or perhaps coluber-huge difference;kings in my exp. seem to get fat very easily...btw that is a gorgeous snake,i've heard kings from that part of the state are rare.

FR Jan 19, 2006 03:26 PM

Actually theres more to a snake getting fat than simple calories.

As I have mentioned so many times, snakes are not indotherms, as such, there is no apples to apples comparison. Temps and range of temps is very important to reptiles.

For instance, many here seem to assume what they are doing is great. While thats fine, you should really understand, that there is a huge range of good or successful. This range can be measured in terms of various results.

Types of growth is a very good measure of conditions. Individuals growing long and thin(think gangly teenager) is normal. Snakes growing slow in length and fast in girth are at the lower end of normal. Generally speaking, snake growing in girth and not lenght are undermetabolized, that is, do not have a high enough temp range. Their bodies are storing more energy then that are processing into growth. If the temps are lower, all growth and feeding stop. There is a balance between usable temps and usable calories. This balance expresses a huge range of results. Fast growth, slow growth, huge clutches, small clutches, multiclutching, no reproduction at all. And yes, growing fat, or growing long and skinny. Normally bulking out occurs as sexual maturity occurs.

Over metabolized snakes are using more energy then they can store. Think motor running at high RPM's at all times, that uses lots of fuel. The reality is, they use both high and low temps and all inbetween. Unfortunately, many keepers seem to like to tell the snakes what they suppose to do and defend that with all they got. I wonder who is telling the wild ones what to do?

One more thing. Wild snakes are taxed, that is, they have parasites(contributing to more life forms) This taxation is even across the board. Rich snakes(lots of energy comsumed) and poor snakes(lower amount of energy consumed) are taxed with every meal. Of course the poorist go bankrupt and perish. The rich, can affort to be taxed and have no problems paying.

About wild snakes not getting fat, boy howdy they sure can. I have seen exceptional years where the young of the year (here) had great supplys of food, they grew very quickly and very thick(fat) they also became pinheaded(giant bodies, little heads). But no worries, soon taxation caught up to them and so did their head size.

Consider unlike captivity, each year in nature is full of surprises and is different then the last, all you have to do is look at the weather reports. ITs hot, it colder, its not normal, to little rain, to much rain, fires, floods. The funny thing is, these animals have been exposed to this and a million times more. Heck, some were here when continents broke apart, then crashed into eachother.

In otherwords, in nature, it tends to work itself out. In captivity it may not. Remember nature has extremes and parasites(taxation) to control temporary abundances of calories. Cheers

BobBull Jan 19, 2006 06:48 PM


-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
3.3 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Mark Banczak Jan 19, 2006 09:04 PM

Very good points and thoughts. Thanks.

snakesunlimited1 Jan 19, 2006 09:09 PM

Frank I have to agree with Bob great post. I also have to agree with your assessment of captive snakes and even go on to say that I would bet about 75% of captives are overweight by wild standards. Which brings me to my point that I was alluding to above.

I mentioned before that I think there is a bunch of captive females that are carrying ova over winter. This has everything to do with what you just said above and since I don't think I can relate it any better I am going to piggyback on your statement.

I look at Zee's snake above and I see a snake that was just shy of breeding length ( about a foot) by most standards but had the weight to pull it off. Unrelated but still related in a way, a study was done showing teenage girls actually enter puberty not at a average age but at a combined age and body fat avaerage content. The increased fat in our diets in the US has girls here entering puberty about 2 years earlier than in the rest of the world on average.

I understand it is a way off comparison but I think the same is happening in our snakes. They are entering breeding age earlier and are all messed up overall in their hormones and their cycles. Yes we tell them when to start breeding but we don't tell them when to stop. In the wild a snake will double clutch if conditions are great. i.e. A abundance of available food. In captivity there is always a abundance of food. BUT conditions are not always great in the other senses. Temps and humidity and the other cues they receive in the wild and the choices they have between them are not offered. So, I asked all of you before and now again, take a look at your snakes and see if you see or feel any lumps in the bellies of your snakes.

I have brought this up to quite a few people in person and on the phone but for some reason no one has noticed what I am talking about. So please take a look and tell me what you notice.

Later Jason

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 09:34 PM

Yes, thanks for the input, Jason. Although, I don't do the double-clutch thing. I like to give my females a little break. I'm not into the mass-producing thing. So far it's still only a love for the hobby. I still work for a living, lol!
Hmmm, I will try & check my fems over the next few days and see if I feel any small "lumps". I' let you know. . .

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

FR Jan 19, 2006 10:40 PM

I don't agree with your thoughts that captives breed younger. There are strong arguements your wrong. Richard Shine documented water python females being gravid at nine months of age.

Also on our study site, we found many female rattlesnakes gravid at a astonishingly small size. One rattle, a button and a base. Hmmmmmmmm three sheds total. Most likely at a little over a year of age.

I think you lose track of the variability that snakes pocess. They can reproduce from a young age to not producting for extented periods, in nature. Of course in captivity, we can and easily keep numbers of females within the upper areas of their potential. I don't believe we in captivity set records to often. Not in size or breeding results.

I think your familiar with captivity, but lack experience with wild snakes. Cheers

justinian2120 Jan 20, 2006 08:31 AM

hey fr-that sounds like a rattler after only 2 sheds ,actually!!can i hear mor about this? my email is justinian2120@hotmail.com

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 09:10 PM

Some things to consider:
[it's funny to see,in the wild,young snakes of the same year and species as captive bred ones,yet the wild ones are bigger all around(i.e. longer,better proportioned) while their captive peers are just fatter....]
Bigger - longer??? Then why did these two captive born & raised guys (in the pics below) have no problem getting to six feet long and over (the bigger one was almost 77"??? I do admit, they're both very well fed obviously. Try finding six foot kings in the wild - Good luck!!! I havn't found one yet (found hundreds of kings, but only 5 foot and below)!
And one more thing: Young (wild) snakes of the same year are NOT at all bigger NOR longer - Not even close! (But I do admit I personally like their proportions better) If you've kept snakes for many years as I have (30 years), you will notice that no matter how much you feed a snake, the head of most colubrids normally will grow at a predetermined rate regardless of how much they eat (exception of course are severely malnourished or sick snakes). So having said that: A wild snake that is the same length as a captive born one will almost always have a bigger head and slimmer body than a captive raised. So that should tell you right away that the wild one IS older because of the larger head (remember the head normally grows at a predetermined rate).
But I DO thank you for the compliments and your comments! I am NOT trying to prove anything, just sharing my own observations of MANY, MANY years of herping! No offense meant - just more INPUT!
Here's the two huge captive born Easterns (and yes, the dollar bills are real and so is MY hand - I'm six foot, 185lbs):

Zee

-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

justinian2120 Jan 19, 2006 10:33 PM

thanks for the input...fr-i do like the analogies you use,and how you word things,etc....blue king- i should have been more specific,i was talking about rattlesnakes(as long as button/pre-button is intact,there's a decent gauge)...also was reffering to snakes i had hatch in captivity from a wild caught momma-you keep one/two,you re-release the rest after marking them,etc...and yes i have come accross some of the same specimens at a later date to see they had exploded in growth...i just believe this has a lot to do with unlimited thermoregulation,and like fr said,parasites,etc. play a role too....

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 11:07 PM

When it comes to wild rattlesnakes, in South Texas (from the town of Freer on south mainly), they grow at an astonishing rate. Up to six foot in just four years!!! There's plenty of rodents and plenty of warm weather in that part of the world. And of course plenty of collectors and car traffic to ensure more rodents are available for surviving rattlers. There has even been some years where there was no winter to speak of in that area and you could find rattlers almost year-round. The only time they seem to dissapear is in July and August when the weather gets TOO HOT!!! I have literally found hundreds of LIVE rattlers there in the past (when I lived in TX back in the early nineties). I have also found several six footers there.
Bull snakes also get very big in those areas. I have seen at least five seven footers and one eight footer (that a friend found and kept for me until I saw it in person)!!!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 09:22 PM

(Rubbish)Is that a british thing??? Just wondering, (got nothing against Brits). . .But anyway, thanks for your comments.
I don't think the snake's weight is 50% fat. You mentioned the fat stores in the back - that particular snake doesn't have a back, lol!!! It's FLAT - maybe a half inch high and an inch wide!
So therefore it's gotta be 40% not an ounce more, LOL!!!
Yeah, so there - proved you WRONG!!!! And me . . . Well, I was just havin' fun with my D-shaped chunky gal from Tampa Bay!!! (She really DOES eat less than all my other kingsnakes)

Cheers, from an ol' bloke . . . Ya bloody well know it!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

JETZEN Jan 19, 2006 08:43 PM

that's the best kind.

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 09:24 PM

Yeah, a little on the chunky side though, but not as bad as the pic shows. She's more flat than all my other kings! And she eats less than all my other kings too!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

JETZEN Jan 19, 2006 09:39 PM

I did'nt notice any fat deposits on her, so i think she looks fine. Iv'e been told that fat deposits are not an indication of poor health but i think they are gross looking anyway.

JETZEN Jan 19, 2006 09:50 PM

is'nt that variety known for being very stout?

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 10:07 PM

I should post some pics of her brother, who also eats the same amount, maybe a little more, but he's pretty normal in shape & girth. He doesn't look overweight at all in my opinion. But both snakes do appear stout and considering their head size . . .I have an eastern king for example that is the same age, same head size, but a foot longer!!! Here's a pic of him:

Zee

-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 10:09 PM

six foot. I they did, they'd be WIDE and HUGE, unbelievably HUGE!!!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

JETZEN Jan 19, 2006 10:19 PM

6'? seems to me i read somewhere that they easily get that big.

BlueKing Jan 19, 2006 11:13 PM

Well, lets just say I have been to Krysko's house and saw his entire collection, when I bought my hatchlings from him a few years ago. The parents of My snake were big , but none were six footers. . . (I'll have to explain that a little better, later)But I would love to see one!!! I bet those would look like cottonmouths - WIDE and POWERFUL!!!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

crimsonking Jan 20, 2006 04:33 AM

...that they don't reach 6' in the wild often anymore since there just isn't the habitat anymore.
Here's a male (over 5') from a few years back. Wish I had better pics of it.
I do know of a captive in St. Pete that may be the biggest king I've seen. It must be over 6' and is definitely a Pinellas animal. Maybe even wc, I have to ask.
:Mark

-----
Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

BlueKing Jan 20, 2006 03:51 PM

Hi Mark! Wow! That would be sweeeet, if you can get pics of that one!!! I would love to see a six foot Pinellas county king! Thanks!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

westernNC Jan 20, 2006 07:01 PM

That the Pinellas Kings are the most southern locale of eastern king...right on the intergrade line between L.g.getula and L.g.floridiana. I have a pair of Pinellas that I got from Peter that are from the same stock as your animal. Mine are '04 animals and both are over 3 feet and just about as thick as that one. I've been catching eastern kings in North Carolina for the past 20 years and the ones I've seen from NC just aren't as thick as the Pinellas.

If that were a photo of a Brooksi, I wonder if anyone would even mention that it might be overweight...The Brooksi/Floridiana are just thicker than Easterns on average. I think that might influence the Pinellas a bit because they are so close to that integrade zone.

She is outstanding by the way Zee. Gotta love the feeding response on those guys. When I got mine from Peter, he told me to watch my fingers...Boy was he right!

Michael

Site Tools