Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey, it's been a while since I've been online, so I thought I'd bring my questions to the top.

First off, thanks Shvar for the pic's below and the descriptions of surface temps and their relation to the air temps. I knew there was a big difference, but had no idea it was that large.

You were saying that your air temps of the hight 80's correlated to temps over 150F (generalities; you had a lot of great examples). My question is, with different setups, does this ratio vary a lot?

You see, I"m often asked to help with sick reptiles... just see the herp health forum for examples on that one. This often becomes a scenerio of me understanding just what they have for a setup and how it relates to the adequate husbandry of their species.

Books, caresheets, and general husbandry "facts" are most often done in air temps. This, because the air temps more correlate to the reptile's actual functioning body temperature. While, as in here, surface temps are often discussed, the relations between them, and air temps are not well documented. For instance. A surface temp on the basking rock is 200F. The surface temp on the cool side is 75F. Does this mean there is a functional temperature gradient between?

I've definately come across people for one reason or another, having a "good" basking temp, only to have animals in upper respiratory distress because of a generally too cool enclosure.

Thanks for all who'll respond, and sorry for the confusion of my previous misunderstandings on the topic.

Ian

do you own and use a Temp Gun?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Nope; shipping to Canada adds a lot more than the initial cost. I don't even bother checking if companies ship across the border-- for live animals, there is often a $1000 minimum order. I guess my pessimism of buying US starts there.

I should add that this isn't my beef with the temp gun; As I"ve said before, I've come across people mixed up with the readings that they are getting, or that they should be getting, and I can't help them because I myself, am not very knowledgeable with this product.

Ian

Come on man, go down to any old industrial supply store and look for them(thats where they came from in the first place) They are not a tool designed for monitors, they are designed for maintanece purposes. You know, checking bearings on conveyor belts and such to anticipate wear and allow replacement before failure.

Besides, you don't even need a thermometer, all you need is your hand. Its is cool to you, its cool to them. If its hot to you, its hot to them. If it burns your hand, it will burn them.

If they have to bask for long periods, then the temps are too low. If they act like its too hot, lift the tail up in the air, the feet too, and contort their bodies to miss hot areas, then its too hot. It they bask ten, twenty minutes at a time and move away, its perfect. You really do not need a thermometer of any sort, you just need common sense.

You do understand that the average human room temps are a perfect base to work from? Then you should understand that from that base to putting your hand under the hot spot for five minutes is just like a thermometer, only slower and less accurate, but works just fine.

About your last comment, about helping others. You mentioned something about, you did not have an understanding of the problem. I ask, why are you helping others when you should be getting help yourself? The best way to help yourself is, to obtain experience and proper tools(like with everything). Then once you understand the workings of temps and successful results and the tools needed to achieve them, you can help others.

Do you know that they make infra-red heat sensors that can detect differences of 1/100 of a degree and can do so in a very small area. Some field workers have used these and found out that reptiles actually perfer lots of different temps, that is, the brain is one temp, the eyes another, the tail another, the stomach another, etc. Just imagine thier surprise when in the past they took IBTs thru the rectum, and thought these reptiles were that temp. Now they understand, the head and tail can be as much as 10 degrees different, depending on behavior and need. Cheers

That's interesting about the variable temps withen the body.

Your general message about common sense, is well, common sense.

As for the need for a temp gun myself, well, common sense dictates that I don't really need to get one for the sake of my own animals, because what I have works great.

For the fact that I try to help others; well, I do think I have a pretty good handle on the husbandry and health aspects of a large variety of herps. If you don't believe me, suite yourself. I go by air temps; obviously a different method than what is popular in the monitor forum. So my problem isn't about not having anything to offer, my problem was a communication dilemma because I didn't understand the variables relating to the use of a temp gun. It's all the same husbandry, just a different method of collecting data.

Ian

Your first two paragraphs, indicate you did not understand something, then thought the main subject was common sense.

Then you went on to mention you had something to offer, I don't believe anyone mentioned or stated you didn't have anything to offer. All everyone said was, you ough to get a infrared heat gun. Which is not in inself husbandry, but merely a tool to either check your husbandry or comunicate your husbandry in a way, that you indicate is common here. I am not sure how common it is here. But I hope it does become more popular for the monitors sake, because the way a heat gun reads temps is fits monitor husbandry better then how normal air temp thermometers read temps.

To understand this must be very difficult because many many do not understand this. You see, reptiles do not bask when its hot(air temps) They perfer to bask when air temps are lower and surface temps are higher. As in early mournings, after rains, etc. To understand that better, you must understand that their burrows, shelters etc, are picked because they provide most of the normal temps and humidities they require. Basking is to be an additional extra source of heat for special times and tasks. For instance if you mist or wet down a cage(rain), that will indeed quickly drop the temps. When this happens, normally the monitor will quickly come out and bask. And if male, re-mark(scent) the cage. Of course because reptiles use a range of temps, individual monitors will come out and bask at temps higher then they normally use for some important reason or another. You know like, to fight of desease or digesting an extra large meal or to aid in a reproductive function. When picking these higher temps, it seems that monitors do not pick one temp or degree, but instead a wide range of temps depending on that particular need or the stage of that need. As in, they start off using a very hot temp, then lower that as the need is met.

With that in mind, it was very hard to discribe(comunicate) those temps with the use of a normal thermometer. Thats where that dang infra-red thermometer came into importance. It was to allow us to repeat and comunicate what the monitors were actually picking.

All in all, you don't need one, but with the inclusion of life events in captive husbandry, things like hatching, growth, maturity, mating, reproduction, social behaviors, longevity and finally death. Even with incubation. A heat gun tells you what temp each egg is in an egg box. Guess what, they are never the same as what the incubators air temp or the same as eachother. The infrared heat gun has proved to be a fine tool to have and its cheap. And it really helps to comunicate the temps the monitors are actually using. So Ian, all that was said, was, you ought to get a heat gun if you want to comunicate temps. Again, only common sense. Cheers

It's unfortunate that everything has to be a play on words, but even with that, you are always a good source of information and ideas. Thanks. I'll keep on working on my apparent lack of communication skills, and just get the dang thing too

Ian

No one said anything about your comunication skills. What your lacking is a tiny bit of common sense.

If we discussed temps using F, which we do. Then you must use F to discuss temps here.(Instead of C)(C may be better, but thats not the point)

If folks here are using heat guns, then in order to participate on an equal basis, you must use a heat gun or convert your information to compare to what a heat gun does.

The problem is, air temps have a huge variation when compared to surface temps. That is, in a constant air temp of 30C(84F), can have a huge range of surface temps. In the case of basking temps, it would depend on the bulb(heat source) distance from the surface. The basking temp could be way below 30C(drawing its temps from a cooler mass below) or way above 30C, being close to the heat source. All the time the air temps are the same.

Understanding this have proved to be very important with modern successful husbandry with many types of reptiles, including varanids.

So yes, there indeed is a relationship between air temps and surface temps, its very weak and variable. In other words, there are more accurate ways. Cheers