Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Posted about this on two forums and the only response I got was one person who thought I was referring to an everglades rat snake.

Is anyone keeping this Japanese species? Pics and info appreciated.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Is anyone keeping this Japanese species? Pics and info appreciated.
>>
>>Frank

Hey, Frank. Shane posted on this species a few months ago, and others from his Japan trip. I know a few have had them before, but don't know anyone who has them right now. I've never had the opportunity myself to keep one, but do think they're a very interesting species.

I don't know exactly what type of info you're looking for, but I think this is one of those species that has both racer and ratsnake characteristics. There seems to be a lot of variability in the species. They are more or less cool adapted depending on what part of Japan they come from. There's also a dwarf form and a very large form, along with some color morphs. As far as relationships go I think they are allied with carinata and davidi in the Elaphe, but maybe will get their own genus one of these days. Good luck with them and keep us posted. I wouldn't mind getting one someday.

TC

Thanks TC,

I am mainly looking to confirm the identity of this snake. there is so little information on them. I do have the German Elaphe book that is about the most informative volume out there. My problem is differenciating it from the striped form of climacaphora. This snake has a orange belly and it's eyes go eliptical when exposed to bright light-which are indicative of Quadrivirgata, yet the shape of the snout suggests Climacaphora. What I am trying to find is more keys to evaluate this snake and hopefully some pics of what it would look like at 1-1.2 ft.

I do keep Clims and one thing I noticed is their scalation is grainier than this one.

FRANK
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi, Frank. Some good questions there.

If you're using Schulz' monograph, check plate 25(c) for a pic of a juvenile. The juves are different looking from the adults as they are for carinata juves/adults. They do tend to have slightly eliptical pupils in intense light, and are kinda strange looking to me. They don't look like typical ratsnakes. ASAMOF, quads are more racer-like, imo, than climacs. Behavior should give it away. But another good way to check it out is to study the scutellation. Climas have 23-25 dsr and quads have 19 dsr usually. Also quads have more strongly keeled scales. Check the ventrals too, climacs always have more than quads. I like to look at shed skins when studying this.

Closely related species living in the same areas, like Japan, will have some similarities, like in color/pattern. I've run into this problem with dione and bimaculata that I've been keeping for many years. The ones that both came from China really gave me problems at first, but after I had them for a number of years I could tell them apart quite easily, usually by behavior alone. Just looking at a picture, however, has given many new keepers lots of problems. They get misidentified with rufodorsata also, and many have come into the U.S. not i.d.'ed properly.

As far as the snouts go, I don't really understand that. I know there's a lot of variation in both species, quads and climacs, and it might be difficult with juves. There's also the possibility that the two species have crossed and made hybrids in certain areas, but I doubt that. Do you have a photo of your juve quad? Anyway, good luck with them and feel free to post any info. I'd like learning more about the species. Japan is one of my favorite areas of the world.

Terry

Thanks Terry,

Since you are interested in Japan, do you have:

GUIDE TO THE REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS OF JAPAN
Richard Goris and Norio Maeda: Krieger Books
ISBN 1-57524-085-8

I saw the "carinata" pic before and it does not resemble my snake. In fact it most looks like the pic in Shulz (plate 5-F striped climacaphora) and orrigionally I thought this was possitive. But then I noticed the snout is definitly shorter (like 24 B).
But the Japan book says that c. has a light blue green belly and q. yellowish (this one definitly follows q in this). Also like I said the eyes do go eliptical.

One other thing. The side stripes are broken into three pencil thin stipes that run very close together.together.

I measured this snake and at present it is 20".

(for the record I have kept cyclophiops semicarinatus and this is nothing like those)

I will use the keys you sent and post back on here. At this time it is in shed so I will wait till after to try and photograph.

Thanks again for the help.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Thanks Terry,
>>
>>Since you are interested in Japan, do you have:
>>
>>GUIDE TO THE REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS OF JAPAN
>>Richard Goris and Norio Maeda: Krieger Books
>>ISBN 1-57524-085-8
>>

I don't have this book (yet). But I do have Herpetology of Japan, by Stejneger, a really old work, reprinted by SSAR in 1996. This paragraph is interesting...

"In the pale striped specimens there is also considerable variation. Thus the width of the stripes is not always the same, they being sometimes of equal width, sometimes the outer ones wider than the median ones, sometimes vice versa; sometimes the median stripes involve one row of scales only, the seventh, sometimes two, the sixth and seventh, or even three, viz, the eighth. The underside is also subject to great variation from nearly uniform whitish, or yellowish, to uniform slate-blue, with a distinct whitish line marking the lateral angle."

Sounds to me like quadrivirgata. Good luck...TC

Hi Frank, here are some pics for you:

This one was DOR (good luck getting a live one to pose like that
Here's a 2' striped specimen.

Here's a melanistic adult with some speckling:

Here's one in situ:

They are active, diurnal snakes. One of the interesting things about them is that the melanistic individuals are born melanistic. As far as other people who keep them (I have a melanistic snake), Rick Cunningham breeds the striped phase.
Hope those pics help with the ID.
Shane

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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Here's a belly shot of the DOR posted above:

Here's a dark, striped adult:

As I recall, the posterior third of the venter on that snake was very dark.
Here's a pale colored adult:

Here's another, less speckled melanistic specimen:

Same snake, but a flash brings out those four lines:

That assortment should give you some idea of how variable the species is, even at the same locale.
Shane

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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Thanks for posting the great pics, Shane.

My snake is finally coming out of shed, so I can more accurately repot on it's color. but is not ready for the handling scale counts would require.

The color is a match for your DOR specimen except for the eyes which are a lighter orange-golden/brown. This snake does not have the "racer like" brow like your photos exibit. There is more contrast between head and neck.

Interestingly, the eyes are slightly bulbus almost like a Trans Pecos Rat. The snout (though shorter in proportion than my Kunsir Climac's)is not as pointed as in your pics. It has the effect you sometimes see in overly inbread albino red rats.

The dorsal stripes are two scales wide and look at times to be two seperate thin lines close together. The lateral lines are three scales wide and look like three lines. There are lines of widely spaced very fine dots between the dorsal stripes

There is no trace of any kind of juvenile pattern except for some irregular faded markings on the head.

This snake's labials and throat are a pale yellow-white. This color changes to a pale yellowish tan/gray as it progresses in the venter to slightly orange near the anal scale. There is light olive dotting just before and heavier (after) the anal scale. The venter looks paler than your photo.

On close examination the umbilical scar is still present on this 20" snake.

I should be able to photograph this snake in the next couple of days and do scallation. While at this point I am leaning towards an abberant striped phase Climac, there are still some things that need to be resolved before Quadrivirgata is ruled out completely.

Thanks for the assist guys. I will keep you posted.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, I'm looking forward to seeing some pics of the snake. I'm trying to visualize the description you provided, and pattern-wise it sounds like a striped climac isn't out of the question, but the ovoid pupils lead me to believe you have a quad. The only climacs I've ever seen were DOR juvies.
Also, as TC alluded to earlier, behavior alone should be a good indicator. Here are a couple of links, that in addition to my pics, I feel demonstrate the behavior equation quite well:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/japrep/snake/ejaphebi.htm
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=987461,987461
Notice that all of the quadrivirgata are alert, ready to bolt off, while the climacs are at ease in the photos. Quadrivirgata just don't pose so well
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Shane,

Great site. Ok, this looks like the solution to the ID.

My snake resembles the one (Clime) from Ben Siegal (which mine also happens to have come from).

The eyes are not so red, nor is the head slate grey. Also, as I said mines eyes are more bulbus and snout slightly shorter. The stripes though, are Exactly like mine's.

But I think it is close enough to call it a match. Will confirm with scallation and also write to confirm color of venter.

Thanks again for your help. Will contact you when pics are ready to send.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>My snake is finally coming out of shed, so I can more accurately repot on it's color. but is not ready for the handling scale counts would require.
>>

Frank, you could look at the shed skin to count dsr's. Here's a pic of a Butler's garter shed, which I prepared, so I could look at it under a microscope also. You can see it has 19 scale rows and you can see which rows the striping is on too, which aids in the i.d....TC

Ok...The snake shed and now is a ringer for the Climac. Same pale gray color. MDSC came in at 22.

It is a stripe phase Clime.

Will send photos when taken. Thanks again,

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."