Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My name is Joe and I have been on this fifteen year hunt for a pair of pinesnakes, the ones found south of the Tampa/Orlando area,and in fifteen years of serching I became aware no one in the rest of the pet/breeder trade seems to have this blood, all pics are northern florida color variant (excluding the genetically altered pool out there.) This is what keeps happining to me, I obtain a male and hunt for years for a female and release the male only to have someone give me a female and then hunt for years for a male... I only look for wild animales that are destin to become relics of the ancient sandhills of florida, I'm not one whom belives in leaving snakes in the wild to be chased by pigs all their lifes I'd rather save them. the decline of their numbers in the wild are not at a slow trickle they have gone from 0-60 starting in the 40s in 20 more years pinesnakes and hognose will be gone. the northern florida pinesnakes all have that mask on the head and/or spots of black...of The pinesnakes found south of Tampa/Orlando all I've seen had no black or dark brown on their anteriors and all had clean white heads. I need help collecting this exceptional gene before its gone... this should not take fifteen years...Especially concidering my passion and the fact I was a commerical collector in the early 90s and I know this state better than most collectors, I have seen over 50 indigos in fifteen years and still hunt big burns from time to time and the only place I do find pinesnakes is north of Tampa/Orlando,this is probaly due to use of the pocketgopher tunnels as refuge 85 % of the snakes lives, here they have only a few, old, partilly filled in gopher tortoise hole every acre,and have to fight for them with the more common indigo...anyway This is a pic of a pinesnake found in sarasota. JB

please do the rest of us a favor-those of us that may like to find one ourselves-leave behind the ones you find in/on protected land?thank you kindly.

just so you know most parks and protected lands here in cent fla have pigs and armidillos that eat snakes in abundance and the parks protect the pigs and not the snakes!

Commercial collecting is a problem too. So you can thank yourself for your complaint. Sorry but you said it.
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Steve W.

i have gotten into truly heated debates with others on sites regarding the harm done by collecting....and it does'nt just apply to the guys bagging everything they see-most think 'well,it's just this one',etc....many are too short sighted or single minded to realize that when you multiply that by all the herpers out there 'just taking one' specimen,by every day that they are out there,year after year...of course it takes a toll,i think a considerable one...and not just to the numbers themselves,but think of how much habitat that is destroyed in search of that next baby corn,scarlet king,etc.when one goes ripping thru every loose piece of bark,rotting stump,etc....i.e. for each one that is found,how much shelter is ruined for the ones we did'nt collect?anyway,yes,we all know that collecting is not the animals' biggest threat-that is habitat destruction,of course-but being the main factor doesn't make that the only factor...i have done these things in the past,but i am always becoming evermore aware and concious about my actions in the field,and their long-term repurcussions to the habitat of the herps that mean this much to me...i know it pisses people off to read this stuff,but only because it's just not what they want to hear.it took me time to come around to this point of view.

much time has been spent in the feild as I have lived in central and south florida all my 35 years and I notice more than you think in reguards to collecting, but the snakes that are really in eminant danger are protected and only allowed to be bread in other states,(and one day they will run into a need for new gene), look on the indigo forum ,the discussion is a common and reoccuring one. but in my beliefs, the small sankes will be around for a while, (as long as there is enough suitable habitat left) and not all collectors destroy tree stumps, the fires did mostly (and that probaly angered justinian too), and the hurricanes, and racoons, all that a collector could do is lift fallen bark,or look under the loose bark, then it layes where we find it, The daily wind does more damage than that, plus every adult taken to be sold will ensure good genes in the sess pool out there currently in the pettrade.(thats what irritates me is all the albinos being bread.) Also in my opinion the hognose will not last (collected or not)due to fire ants and ferrelcats and loss of habitat, but the scarletkings are a long way from threatend along with all snakes under two foot as adults. Indigos will be fine for now, in the unurbanized areas of the state, but the laws that protect them, do not protect the land they need from being developed. Justin must be a real tree hugger and likly has no feild experince, and may be very booksmart but (here comes the part that I "hate to say" is the collectors (some ex- collectors) really are the only experts on this topic..

well,no the fires don't piss me off,lol....but joe these snakes have been here a lot longer than us-and you came off sounding like you think they are waiting to be rescued so they can contribute their dna to your collection's 'precariously thin' gene pool...lol,come on!i feel that 'new blood lines' theory is heavily overused-really,how many snakes have you bred that in fact had clear birth defects through inbreeding(popped eyes,etc.)?i hear that and think it's an attempt to rationalize more collecting from the wild-ultimately,for profit-be it immediately,or after selling off their babies 2,3,4 years later(even if it is true,the claim for needing so much new blood-are all those remaining out in the wild simply ours for the taking?)....you claim 'rescue'-for your profit?i don't buy it(in fact it sounds like crap to me)...captive propagation is one thing joe-but what you spoke of sounds like straight-up poaching,and i'll never be ok with that....now,as many years as you've been in the field,you surely know how destructive even one overzealous/careless herper can be,don't bs me...'unurbanized aeras'?they're going fast,bro-more than you know,apparently- way too many slack-jawed yokels reproducing like bunnies,just out of sheer boredom....ever tried,permanently,moving to australia?i don't think there's nearly so many cookie-cutter townhome communities,or a wal-mart on every corner...maybe we could take notes on their ways of population control...ok,sorry,getting off on a tangent.....'tree-hugger'?if that means what i think it does,i guess you got me there-btw what does that make you,a 'bulldozer-hugger'?-and for the record i do make contributions to an organization that buys and protects large tracts of land,so the flora and fauna can be studied and preserved....but WHY THE HELL would any straight-thinking person on this site,kingsnake.com,have a problem with that?!?....'booksmart'?well thanks for the compliment,but i in fact put more stock in,and am prouder of,my own personal experience in the field....regardless,i read and learn all that i can,anywhere i can,about these things that are so important to me.ok i am getting tired here...wow i am afraid this post is likely to piss off a few more,lol...sorry if i offended any,i just feel very strongly about this here.

first of all justin I think your off base here a lil, I'm not collecting every pinesnake I find, just the ones found in my area, and In my life that has been three, in 25 years (south if tampa)and currently have only one female from the panhandle,and as far as profit, I make doctor money as a high end cabinet installer and have not made a dime from the sale of a snake in ten years,I am currently breeding eastern coachwhips,southern hogs and the pines if god willing, and will not make a dime on them either, all the coachwhips I buy from dealers get released on beaches where I used to see them as a kid now all I see on them beaches are rats crossing the trails, so I throw money at these projects of mine, and also all the wildlife officers that have been to my home and seen my animals and that i have talked to in the feild and met at the shows have been very compassionite towards my views and some have suggested I get a display permit to do indigo and pinesnake shows at myakka state park where parents can bring their kids to see these snakes on the ground instead on in an enclosure, and I have allready done shows for three elementary schools in town. so I can tell youre a good s#!t but I'm an alright guy too....JB

Joe, while I have not seen one in the Sarasota area (by the way I cannot see your pic) in years, I agree that they are beauties.
They are under seige as all of our wildlife is for sure.
The curreent laws are kinda weird to me concerning the pines.
Found one years ago thanks to a raccoon that had the pine hissing so loudly I heard it from half a football field away.
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

mark that pine in your post looks exactly like the female I have now.but I'm not to crazy about breeding the northern ones but if its a male well make some eggs and give the eggs to other inthused individuals and let them incubait their own lil egg, that way we can't be in violation of having more than one per person... Oh! and what th' hell is "surrender dorthy" your not gay are you....lol

I have no desire to breed them Joe. I just like to (hopefully) photo one or two before they're all gone.
Wizard of Oz.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I'm trying to figure out your exact concern here. Are you trying to re-introduce pines into your idea of suitable habitat. You must know that that pine snakes in Florida are a species of special concern.........You can have one, but cannot breed them and sell the offspring. I noticed that you are especially concerned with the pines from the southwest part of their range in Florida. Having been a field collector in Florida for many years, I've always found that pine snakes turn up in the most surprising areas. Good luck in your endeavors, but may I suggest that you look around orange groves in your area for a nice specimen!

three in 25 years, fifteen as an adult and my first was at the age of 10...I was in the presants of a devil! and heart pounding I captured it, but what a hook in my lip!.. JB