Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How many is too many animals in a collection? What kind of limits should we place on ourselves when it comes to owning animals. Should the numbers we keep be dictated by the amount of labour it takes to maintain them each day? Or by the cost of upkeep, including potential costs like vet care.

If you have a large number of animals, even if you can afford the time, energy and money to keep them, how much enjoyment can you really get out of them .If you see them for 5 – 10 minutes a day while you maintain their enclosure before moving on to the next cage what does that really give you?.

I admit that at one time I was in that boat. There were just enough hours in the day to maintain my collection after I came home from work.. But I never really had a chance to sit back and watch individual animals. It was all cleaning, watering, checking for eggs, checking incubators, feeding and then getting ready for the next day. I never really had a chance to sit back and enjoy them. I had my favourites that I could pay a little more attention to, but that was it.

So I decided to cut way down on numbers and concentrate on a few pairs instead. And I enjoy them so much more now. I get to watch individual behaviours and maybe I’m just anthropamorsizing, but I believe they enjoy interacting with me. A couple of my tortoises are dog tame and come running looking for treats when they see me.
And while I would have been able to afford vet care if some strange virus had hit my collection, it would have put a serious strain on my pocketbook. That’s no longer a concern.

I think a lot of us get caught up treating animals almost like collectibles. We need more, we have to be the kid on the block with the newest and the best. For me at least less is more. And I think that would be a good idea for a lot of us.

>>,So I decided to cut way down on numbers and concentrate on a few pairs instead. And I enjoy them so much more now. I get to watch individual behaviours and maybe I’m just anthropamorsizing, but I believe they enjoy interacting with me. A couple of my tortoises are dog tame and come running looking for treats when they see me.

I've been accused of anthropomorphising in the past as if it's a horrible thing to do. They do interact with us because they aren't stupid beings. You take them as they are, enjoy them for what they are, don't expect more of them than what they are capable of giving and there is nothing wrong with that... nothing wrong with interacting with them.
I can open the door when my tortoise is grazing- facing away from me call her name, she'll stop and turn around to look at me. Last week I looked down on Chip as he walked near where I was sitting, I called him name and he looked up at me. I'm always awestruck by exhibitions of intelligence from them.

>>>>I think a lot of us get caught up treating animals almost like collectibles. We need more, we have to be the kid on the block with the newest and the best. For me at least less is more. And I think that would be a good idea for a lot of us.

I see what you're saying because I know people like that. For example the person who threw away the African fat tailed gecko that we now keep had had him for 3-4 years and he didn't even have a name. That person had many more pets than we do but didn't bother to name any of them. To me a name is important because when they aren't important enough to you to give them a name then they're just a thing that the person doesn't get to know.
These other people we know who have 30 something box turtles in their backyard don't treat them as if each one matters.. they're just a collection of living beings who get food tossed to them & don't really mean much to the people. If one dies during winter the 'tude from these people is "Oh well, whatever."
They don't bother to learn how to prevent that from happening again.

I think it's easy to get overwhelmed before you know it but on the other hand many of us also know our limits. Our home is filled with animals that aren't the best, the majority of our wards are handicapped or have problems, including our dog but even so we are at our limit now.
We won't take in another at this time but I have given a lot of thought over the years to what you're saying... the collectible aspect of them. They aren't things, they are living individuals and that fact keeps me from viewing them as my possessions. They are my responsibility, not my possessions.
That is why I strive to have an personal, individual relationship with each one and spend time with each one every day. When I do that then if something is wrong with one I can see it right away because I KNOW that animal.
I understand what you're getting at. I think we all need to put a lot of thought into what we're doing so that we are able to give the animals healthy happy lives.
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PHRatz

>>
>> I think it's easy to get overwhelmed before you know it but >>on the other hand many of us also know our limits. Our home is >>filled with animals that aren't the best, the majority of our >>wards are handicapped or have problems, including our dog but >>even so we are at our limit now.

My vet calls my crew my "freak show" because I tend to end up with so many abandoned, handicapped or whatever animals. The Ackie with the foot chewed off that the guy traded me for. The Savanna with the bitten off tail given me last week. The plucked Quaker parakeet. The Borneo Blood python with the eye infection that the shop where I work couldn't invest more into.
Of course he rarely sees the animals that I took in more "intentionally" because they are healthy and rarely need to be seen. ( He PTS a cat for me a few years ago....Pompey was 17yr old. Dr Mike says "Why have I never seen this animal before?" I said, "He's never been sick before". I do my own vacs and rabies clinics and well I do believe in well checks I also believe that if it ain't broke don't fix it. Ends up Pompey had a kidney condition that usually kills persians (he was a grey tiger barn kitten...no persian) before they are 2. Dr Mike was awed that he had lived all that time with no apparent symptoms.

>>We won't take in another at this time but I have given a lot >>of thought over the years to what you're saying... the >>collectible aspect of them. They aren't things, they are >>living individuals and that fact keeps me from viewing them as >>my possessions. They are my responsibility, not my possessions.
>>That is why I strive to have an personal, individual >>relationship with each one and spend time with each one every >>day. When I do that then if something is wrong with one I can >>see it right away because I KNOW that animal.

I definitely think we need to know our limits. I also firmly believe in rehoming an animal if it isn't working out or if you aren't connecting perhaps like you thought you would. The idea of a forever home is interesting. In a world where we divorce our lovers why is it taboo in many circles to rehome a pet?
Yes, I do foster animals. I know when they come in the door that they will be leaving again. And sometimes they don't.(like the Border Collie with a bite history, a barking problem and a seizure disorder) But taking in an animal and being responsible for it doesn't need to be a lifetime commitment but it does need to be taken seriously.

I think a name is important too. I think it gives you a connection with an animal and an image of their psyche. Though I will admit to not having names for some of my animals. Yet. I just named a Greenish Rat Snake that I had had two years. No name presented itself til last week. She was escaping her enclosure suddenly and frustrating me. When caught she bit me and was being a snot. The only rack area left was one I kiddingly called cursed since a snake died in it last year for no apparent reason. I had left it empty since then. Now "Witch" lives there....and she isn't escaping any more.

Collecting has such a negative connotation. When I started in herps I didn't like the reference to your 'collection' for that reason. But lets face it. For many of us our animals are our hobby, our bliss, so yes, it can seem like a collection at times.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

" because they are healthy and rarely need to be seen. ( He PTS a cat for me a few years ago....Pompey was 17yr old. Dr Mike says "Why have I never seen this animal before?" I said, "He's never been sick before". I do my own vacs and rabies clinics and well I do believe in well checks I also believe that if it ain't broke don't fix it.

That is why this year for Christmas when I sent he vet that Jeff Foxworthy you might be a redneck card lol I signed everyone's name. She hasn't seen everyone but that's because they haven't needed to see her. I have enough training to know when they need her & when they don't. There are no vaccines for all the species, I can do my own parasite testing.. she gives me the Fecasol to do the tests so I just don't take them if they don't need her. She knows that I will bring them in if I need to so...
>>
>>I definitely think we need to know our limits. I also firmly believe in rehoming an animal if it isn't working out or if you aren't connecting perhaps like you thought you would. The idea of a forever home is interesting. In a world where we divorce our lovers why is it taboo in many circles to rehome a pet?
>>Yes, I do foster animals. I know when they come in the door that they will be leaving again. And sometimes they don't.(like the Border Collie with a bite history, a barking problem and a seizure disorder) But taking in an animal and being responsible for it doesn't need to be a lifetime commitment but it does need to be taken seriously.

I see your point there too. I tend to not foster because they generally don't leave here if they land here. However our vet does foster & there have been times I've gotten an animal into my possession that I simply could not keep so she took it from me & got it a home.

>>
>>I think a name is important too. I think it gives you a connection with an animal and an image of their psyche. Though I will admit to not having names for some of my animals. Yet. I just named a Greenish Rat Snake that I had had two years. No name presented itself til last week. She was escaping her enclosure suddenly and frustrating me. When caught she bit me and was being a snot. The only rack area left was one I kiddingly called cursed since a snake died in it last year for no apparent reason. I had left it empty since then. Now "Witch" lives there....and she isn't escaping any more.
>>
Hey better late than never LOL!

>>Collecting has such a negative connotation. When I started in herps I didn't like the reference to your 'collection' for that reason. But lets face it. For many of us our animals are our hobby, our bliss, so yes, it can seem like a collection at times.

Collecting has a negative connotation because we see so many news stories about the filthy conditions of collectors who are harming animals, not helping them. Just the other day when we met these people who's dachshund killed the box turtle the wife said since then the dachshund died too. She wants another the husband is adamant that NO they won't have another dog. They have no pets, I said bring him around to animal city (my house) maybe he'll change his mind.
She asked where do all these animals live? Except for the tortoise & one box turtle, in the house. I could see from the look on her face, she thinks my house is filthy & stinky. No way is it that like that but unless she sees if for herself I know she's thinking ewwwwww.
I didn't mention anything about the roaches, mealworms, tarantulas, or rats being here. lol
Being able to keep things clean, pay for medical treatment, feed them the right foods.. how many is too many depends on the family.
If you are the Sonya I think you are, then I want to adopt your kids because I know what a huge help they are.
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PHRatz

>>If you are the Sonya I think you are, then I want to adopt your kids because I know what a huge help they are.
>>-----
>>PHRatz

Yes, I am and yes, they are. I couldn't and wouldn't have the number of diversity that I have without the entire family being involved. So it is a family 'collection'.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

You've asked some reaaly great questions.

You mentioned that certain people tend to treat them as collectibles, a remark that I've made often enough (although not on this site). I've never really been able to fathom the attitude that certain pets (particularly non-mammals) are to be bought, sold, or traded like baseball cards. Frequently (it seems to me) these are the same types of people who insist that reptiles make terrific pets, that they interact with humans very well, etc.
I seldom hear dog and cat owners talk about their pets in this way: 'yeah, I have a calico cat that I'm trading in for a really cool gray tabby'.
Its very contradictory to me.
Of course it doesn't help that there are plenty of reptile sellers out there who market aggressively. All it takes is a quick glance at the classifieds on this site to see some of these snake-oil salesmen in action.
What a racket.

I've never really been able to fathom the attitude that certain pets (particularly non-mammals) are to be bought, sold, or traded like baseball cards. Frequently (it seems to me) these are the same types of people who insist that reptiles make terrific pets, that they interact with humans very well, etc.
>>I seldom hear dog and cat owners talk about their pets in this way: 'yeah, I have a calico cat that I'm trading in for a really cool gray tabby'.
>>Its very contradictory to me.

Same here. I've known/do know people who trade reptiles and other "exotics" that way. These are the people I call acquaintances, not friends. I can't understand it either because like you say, they don't trade their dogs or cats in on a "cooler" model.
I might trade my car in but not a living member of the family.

I'll never understand that baseball card way of thinking.
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PHRatz

I agree totally with both of you. When things got too hectic for me was when I went from being a hobbyist to a hobbyist/breeder. That combined with my 9 to 5 job as an IT consultant took away the original joy I’d had working one on one with my animals. So I slowly phased back, placing animals with friends I could trust until I had a manageable few of my favorites left. I no longer take in new animals and I find the interaction I have with my pets much more enjoyable. I understand that big breeders need larger numbers of animals in order to make their business’s work, but hobbyists don’t and shouldn’t really in my humble opinion. I think it’s kind of ludicrous that people buy and trade animals as often as they do. As you’ve said, you don’t see it with dogs and cats, so why with snakes, lizards and turtles. They are reasonably intelligent animals who demand our respect and the best care we can give them.

>> They are reasonably intelligent animals who demand our respect and the best care we can give them.

That goes back to the first paragraph of your original post. You'd mentioned vet care, that to me is a vital part of the care we are obligated to provide for them.
If I didn't know the vet we see now & wasn't able to pay for the care, I could never have as many as I do. This vet moved here around 5 years ago, she's been treating my animals since 2003. I like her so much because she thinks the way I do and she rescues far more animals than I do.
Like you she feels that they deserve our care and our respect.

When it comes to a wild animal as Chip was, she doesn't charge me an arm & a leg because she understands that I wouldn't even have him at all had it not been for a dog chewing him up.
I could've just dumped him on her & walked away. She would've taken him in & repaired him but I liked him right off the bat, I also wanted the challenge so I told her I wanted him fixed, that I would keep him.
Because he was wild & might not make it she didn't charge me for anything other than medications & the supplies needed to repair him. She couldn't have been more fair than that.

My own personal experience has a lot to do with why I so often tell people that one of the first things you need to do when you become a pet owner is to establish a good working relationship with a veterinarian.
When a vet knows how serious you are about keeping a pet healthy, they'll bend over backwards for you to help you keep them thriving.
The week before last I told her that Chip has now become interested in girls, she was beaming. If not for both of us he wouldn't be alive right now but her fabulous repair job is his true lifesaver.
She was beaming because saving their lives is why she is a vet. To me she is one of the most important people in my life because of what she does for their lives.
The best care we can possibly give them IMO always includes having a vet in the picture.
With these "baseball card" reptile trader type people I know, none of them are ever too keen on the idea of spending money on a vet, that's the last thing on their minds.. then they don't understand why this one or that one died.
The real shame of it is, one of these people I know works for vets but won't actually USE a vet.
How weird is that?
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PHRatz

>>I seldom hear dog and cat owners talk about their pets in this way: 'yeah, I have a calico cat that I'm trading in for a really cool gray tabby'.
>>Its very contradictory to me.

A couple of things jump out at me. Often when you see the 'trading and dealing' of animals refered to here on KS it is with animals that are not forming tight bonds with their owners. Yes, my herps recognize me and are tame etc. But if given a chance they would bugger off and head for parts unknown. It is not a trauma for them to change homes. Even a cat (kidding) is domestic enough to return home now and then. (mine are NEVER allowed outside unsupervised so it isn't an issue)

That said, if you are intimate with any fancy....raising birds for show or breeding, rabbits, cats, , even dogs....there IS the trading and dealing. They are not intimate house pets......they are, like it or not, a commodity. Likely too, if the attitude of the owner is such the animal is not traumatized by the change and rehoming. The trauma is on the human end.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

“They are not intimate house pets......they are, like it or not, a commodity. Likely too, if the attitude of the owner is such the animal is not traumatized by the change and rehoming. The trauma is on the human end.”

I can’t say that I agree with this. The problem in this industry is with people that treat animals like a commodity and not a valued pet. They shouldn’t be something to buy and sell as soon as you get bored with them.

As far as re-homing goes, it can do a great deal of harm to the animal. Every time you move them out of an environment that they’ve grown accustomed to and learned to call their home territory, it puts stress on the animal. The more stress, the more likely their immune systems will be compromised and then problems will occur.

Reptiles are not baseball cards or collectibles. For the most part they are zoo quality animals that take a great deal of specialized care to maintain, much more than the average dog or cat. In a large number of instances they go to people who aren’t prepared to make the kind of financial investment it takes to properly maintain them or who don’t have the necessary knowledge base to care for them. And in large collections, in a number of instances, care is not as ideal as it could be for all the animals.

So, if you’re looking at reptiles like you would tropical fish, I think you do your pets a grave disservice.

>>“They are not intimate house pets......they are, like it or not, a commodity. Likely too, if the attitude of the owner is such the animal is not traumatized by the change and rehoming. The trauma is on the human end.”
>>
>>I can’t say that I agree with this. The problem in this industry is with people that treat animals like a commodity and not a valued pet. They shouldn’t be something to buy and sell as soon as you get bored with them.
>>
>>As far as re-homing goes, it can do a great deal of harm to the animal. Every time you move them out of an environment that they’ve grown accustomed to and learned to call their home territory, it puts stress on the animal. The more stress, the more likely their immune systems will be compromised and then problems will occur.
>>
>>Reptiles are not baseball cards or collectibles. For the most part they are zoo quality animals that take a great deal of specialized care to maintain, much more than the average dog or cat. In a large number of instances they go to people who aren’t prepared to make the kind of financial investment it takes to properly maintain them or who don’t have the necessary knowledge base to care for them. And in large collections, in a number of instances, care is not as ideal as it could be for all the animals.
>>
>>So, if you’re looking at reptiles like you would tropical fish, I think you do your pets a grave disservice.

So with some animals it is okay??? That is a double standard set by your own attachment level and has nothing to do with the animal's opinion. My fish recognize me as much or more than my herps. All living things deserve respect, that has NOTHING to do with how attached you are to them.
So, Zoos are bad? Believe me the animals are a commodity. And if they are someones 'Pet' it is strictly for the emotional benefit of the person. While the animals may be familiar with them they will adapt and go on when things change.
Disservice??? I have seen animals that were loved pets, devoted owners, that took horrid care of the animal. Again, it is for the human not the animals peace of mind. Better to sell them when you are bored than leave them to waste away neglected and ignored. Just like getting a divorce relationships are not permanent. (as a Tshirt I saw said..."Tis better to have loved and lost than to have lived with the psycho for the rest of your life." ) Do you have the same friends and lover you started with? No changing, no moving on.....wow.
And I would disagree with you on the conditions in 'collections'. You don't take your prized and valuable baseball cards and keep them in a moldy, damp corner. The vast majority of the animals here are in better shape when they leave than when they came. Stress is minor when the conditions are correct, that is part of the care of placement. While there are good and bad I doubt seriously it is weighted toward the keepers with larger numbers.
You think a snake in a glass box considers this his territory?
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

“All living things deserve respect, that has NOTHING to do with
how attached you are to them.”

Very true and I don’t believe I’ve stated otherwise. My choice of fish may have been a poor example as I don’t keep them. But as I said I’ve never stated otherwise.

“So, Zoos are bad? Believe me the animals are a commodity.”

Not sure what you’re getting at here. I stated that reptiles are for the most part zoo quality animals that require more specialized care than the average dog or cat. As far as zoo’s treating their animals as commodities, that is a far too simplified view of what a zoo does, but that is not part of this debate, we’re talking about pet keepers.

“And if they are someones 'Pet' it is strictly for the emotional
benefit of the person. While the animals may be familiar with them
they will adapt and go on when things change. “

So what if an animal is a pet strictly for a person’s emotional benefit? It doesn’t change the fact that as an owner, you have decided to take on this animal and are therefore obligated to provide the best care possible for it. The animal didn’t ask to live with you, you made that decision for them. And not all animals adapt so readily to change as you indicate. I’ve seen a large number of animals go off their feed and start to decline after the stress of a move. I’ve also seen a number of reptiles go from home to home until they eventually died or had to be put down(mostly larger boas, pythons, RES and Iguanas). Rescues are full of unwanted Herps from people who just got bored of them and they can’t be placed.

“Better to sell them when you are bored than leave them to waste away neglected and ignored.”

That’s the problem. A lot of animals (see above) just can’t be sold or placed once we get bored of them. Hey, I’m no saint. As I said in my first post, my collection had gotten past the point where I felt comfortable, but at least I was able to place my excess over time with people that I knew were qualified to care for them. Even so, it was far from perfect.

“And I would disagree with you on the conditions in 'collections'.
You don't take your prized and valuable baseball cards and keep them in a moldy, damp corner. The vast majority of the animals here are in better shape when they leave than when they came. Stress is minor when the conditions are correct, that is part of the care of placement. While there are good and bad I doubt seriously it is weighted toward the keepers with larger numbers.
You think a snake in a glass box considers this his territory?”

I don’t know how many collections you’ve seen, but I have seen many where the animals were not well cared for. While we might not put our prized baseball cards in a moldy damp corner a lot of us are willing to leave a reptile in a dirty, damp, cramped cage.
I’m glad that your collection is well cared for, but as I’ve said I’ve seen many that weren’t. The larger the numbers, the more room there is for errors and cutting corners.

And finally, Yes, I do think that if conditions are right, that snake thinks that glass box is his territory.

>>Not sure what you’re getting at here. I stated that reptiles are for the most part zoo quality animals that require more specialized care than the average dog or cat.

Then we should only own dogs and cats? I don't get your point. Most people who keep fish, birds or herps all need special training?? I would hazard that the order of mortality for fish and birds is excessive. Then there are all those hamsters that die at the ripe old age of 6 months.

>>So what if an animal is a pet strictly for a person’s emotional benefit? It doesn’t change the fact that as an owner, you have decided to take on this animal and are therefore obligated to provide the best care possible for it. The animal didn’t ask to live with you, you made that decision for them. And not all animals adapt so readily to change as you indicate. I’ve seen a large number of animals go off their feed and start to decline after the stress of a move. I’ve also seen a number of reptiles go from home to home until they eventually died or had to be put down(mostly larger boas, pythons, RES and Iguanas). Rescues are full of unwanted Herps from people who just got bored of them and they can’t be placed.

I think more correctly stated rescues are full of igs, RES, large boids.....but shelters are likewise overflowing with dogs and cats. I don't think you can categorically say we can't own X animal because they get dumped. And yes, animals may go off food or stress but a knowledgeable keeper can get them through this and go on. Same for dogs. Heck, years ago my own dog went off food during my honeymoon. Thankfully she needed to lose weight. But any living thing is going to react to change, but dying from it is in the hands of the caregiver.

>>I don’t know how many collections you’ve seen, but I have seen many where the animals were not well cared for. While we might not put our prized baseball cards in a moldy damp corner a lot of us are willing to leave a reptile in a dirty, damp, cramped cage.

I have seen many single animal homes where conditions were deplorable. And yes, I have seen collections too, but rarely with signs of neglect. Guess I surround myself with good people. But I work in the pet trade and people offer us this sort of thing all the time. Or someone comes in with a dying animal they 'rescued' from someone, but are not going to 'waste money on' by taking to the vet. I don't think you can blame 'collections' for this. Poor owners are poor owners whether they have one or many. Just the 'collections' gone bad make the news much more.

BTW, zoos are only as good as their people and I have met some I love and some that don't know average information. Heck, I docented at a zoo that fed their iguanas cat food. Information of the day. Just because something requires learning doesn't mean it should be legislated.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Are you sure you’re reading and responding to my posts? Where oh where did I say we should only own dogs and cats? And where in my posts have I ever said that most people who keep fish, birds or herps all need special training? Although that might not be a bad idea. And in anything I’ve written I’ve never said that you can't own X animal because they get dumped. I don’t mind a debate, but at least respond to what I’ve written and refrain from making stuff up.

When I stated that reptiles were zoo quality animals that means that they require specialized care and equipment to maintain them properly. Something a lot of people try and get around. And in large collections, proper care and maintenance take up a huge amount of time and effort. If you have a 9 to 5 job and are trying to maintain 80 or so Herps in your spare time I’m betting you’re cutting corners somewhere. Yes there are some people that manage it but an awful lot don’t provide the best care for all their charges in such conditions. Even owners with the best of intentions can be overwhelmed when the numbers in their care get too large.

I’m glad the people you hang around are such upstanding citizens. Most of the really dedicated hardcore herpers I’ve known for years are too. But I’ve seen quite a few collections that got away from their keepers ability to manage it.

Say for arguments sake you’ve got a large collection with 40 cages of all sizes. You average 10 minutes a cage a day for cleaning, feeding, health check and miscellaneous chores. That’s 400 minutes a day or over 6 and a half hours of maintenance. Try fitting that into a day after working 9 to 5. Think you won’t cut corners or neglect something.

I still maintain that in most cases less is more. And that if we avoided the trap of collecting more and more just because it was newer or cooler the animals would all be better off.

Information of the day back at you. I never stated that because something requires learning it should be legislated.

>>Are you sure you’re reading and responding to my posts? Where oh where did I say we should only own dogs and cats? And where in my posts have I ever said that most people who keep fish, birds or herps all need special training? Although that might not be a bad idea. And in anything I’ve written I’ve never said that you can't own X animal because they get dumped. I don’t mind a debate, but at least respond to what I’ve written and refrain from making stuff up.
>>
>>When I stated that reptiles were zoo quality animals that means that they require specialized care and equipment to maintain them properly. Something a lot of people try and get around. And in large collections, proper care and maintenance take up a huge amount of time and effort. If you have a 9 to 5 job and are trying to maintain 80 or so Herps in your spare time I’m betting you’re cutting corners somewhere. Yes there are some people that manage it but an awful lot don’t provide the best care for all their charges in such conditions. Even owners with the best of intentions can be overwhelmed when the numbers in their care get too large.
>>
>>I’m glad the people you hang around are such upstanding citizens. Most of the really dedicated hardcore herpers I’ve known for years are too. But I’ve seen quite a few collections that got away from their keepers ability to manage it.
>>
>>Say for arguments sake you’ve got a large collection with 40 cages of all sizes. You average 10 minutes a cage a day for cleaning, feeding, health check and miscellaneous chores. That’s 400 minutes a day or over 6 and a half hours of maintenance. Try fitting that into a day after working 9 to 5. Think you won’t cut corners or neglect something.

My apologies for taking what you said about 'Zoo quality' and assuming you meant one thing not the other. When someone says that to me I think that they are saying that mere amateurs are incapable.
Personally I don't think any animal is simple. I have seen too many ruined dogs to say even they are easy. Hamsters die from substandard care and inattentive parents. I see numbers not as the issue but the conviction of the owners.
I am knee deep in dog toys, cat toys. Cabinets house just animal stuffs (those cheap plastic drawer units are great for food, extra ferret beds, collars and leashes) So, yes, a good deal of my life is dedicated to animals. This is foreign to people who have one dog and a bird and golf all week, but it is normal here.
By saying that you don't think a large collection can get good care to me you immediately came to my mind as saying "not as good and therefore you shouldn't do it" Again, my assumption, sorry for taking it negatively.
I think your estimate of time involved is overzealous. I work a full work week. I have 30-60 enclosures (reptiles, birds, rodents, bugs(depending on how many babies I am tending and how many feeder rodents I have) and I spend less time with some and more than others daily. Some, like snakes, get a peek to be sure there isn't a mess or spilt water with a major tear down and all on feeding day. Others, like birds, climb on me for an hour while I am doing other stuff. I have time for eating, sleeping, reading, all that and not scrimping or cutting corners on care. Though I do stream line by having extra of some enclosures so that an animal can get a total change out and the dirty enclosure fully washed and disinfected regularly. So yes, some different considerations are taken because of the numbers; but not substandard care.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

While reading the posts about "How many are too many?" I got to thinking that because of my screen name y'all might think that I am a "collector" as it has been put! Well, I'm not.......even though I do have 9 box turtles. The story is a long one and I don't think you all would be interested in hearing it, but I will just say that I removed 7 baby box turtles and 9 adults from a relative's yard five years ago and brought them home with me. Our aunt was no longer living at the house permanently, and all of her turtles were having to fend for themselves 99% of the time. I found new homes for 8 of the adult turtles but kept one adult and the babies whose sizes ranged from that of a quarter to about a 50cent piece. Oh, I know.....you are adding up in your head and are thinking....."1 adult and 7 babies don't add up to 9!" Well, this year I was brought another hatchling......not related to any of our turtles.... thus I have 9. However, that is another story entirely!

I might add that all of the 9 are named and I talk to and hold each and every one of them each day when they are not hibernating. I love to see them roaming around outside and I think they are so cute when I talk to them and they look up at me as if they know exactly what I am saying to them. (just so you know.......the hatchling is in the house, not hibernating, and will be housed apart from the other 8.)

As for re-homing the adults.......well, I felt I had no choice. They were in a yard that they had been born and raised in and most were well over 25 years old. But......they had been fed daily and taken care of in that yard, and now there was no one in the house to care for them. I went as often as I could to feed them for our aunt, but when one lives 32 miles away it is hard to do it on a daily basis. Many feral cats had taken over the yard and I'm sure if there were any other baby turtles there, that they were snacks for the cats. I did do a thorough search of the yard trying to find all the turtles. Rest assured that the adults I did give away are living a very nice life in someone else's backyard right now. I made sure they would not be housed in a tank since they had been free to roam in a yard all their life. One more point here......I kept the babies because of their size. I was afraid that if I gave them away they would be kept in a tank all their life. They were raised in large wooden cages I made for them but for the past 2 1/2 years they have been allowed to spend the daylight hours wandering in the backyard. And now we are building a large pen for them so I don't have to worry about where they are when I am mowing the yard this coming summer. I am sure I will still let them out of their pen to wander the yard though from time to time. Sorry this is so long! I just wanted to fill you in on how I came to own 9 turtles. .....9boxies

>>While reading the posts about "How many are too many?" I got to thinking that because of my screen name y'all might think that I am a "collector" as it has been put! Well, I'm not.......even though I do have 9 box turtles.

That thought had never even crossed my mind. I don't consider 9 to be all that many. I know that people who don't keep pets would think it is a lot but I know it is a manageable number for a lot of people because I have 8 shelled pets, not all are box turtles but in total it's 8. If my missing box turtle ever comes back I'll have 9. Long story of how she vanished but the tortoise's "arm" going through the pen & bending it is how the story began.

Thank you for sharing the story of how you did happen to take in 9 of them. I found it very interesting & I think it's great that you were able to get them all cared for even if you didn't keep all of them yourself.
It sounds like something I would've been compelled to do if I were in your shoes.
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PHRatz