Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This may seem like a rather stupid question, but I honestly have to wonder, are there any of you out there who promote crosses who would have no problem with there being not one pure specimen of any locality in captivity?

Some of you come off so strong in your stance that it seems as though you have zero appreciation for the natural beauty that evolution has developed over the years. Please tell me I'm wrong...

I know that at some point in my life, if I have kids and they become interested in boas and they ask me what a Cayos Cochinos Boa looks like and I can't show them a pure specimen in person or at least a recent pic, then I think we as hobbyists, breeders, etc... have failed miserably. I think that we need to wise up and consider the possibility that some IBD epidemic could sweep through many peoples collections and totally wipe out the vast majority of Hogs and all we'd be left with are X's... What would your stance be at that point? Would your previous transgressions against this species no longer be justifiable in your eyes, or would you continue to alleviate your conscience by spouting off worthless drivel?

Another thought, how sad is it that people will eventually have to call a good number of the boas in captivity "boas" because saying, "well, it's certainly not a monkey" is just too vague, but classifying it any further than "boa" would be impossible because it's lineage is so screwed up that any venture in that direction would not only be a lie, but also superficial and only a guess at best.

In closing, it really disturbs me that so many of you can take your responsibilities to this species you say you love so lightly. You continue to shirk your duties and justify your actions however you see fit, but you know that the saying "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" certainly applies to you. I hope that someday, hopefully sooner than later, you'll realize what you've destroyed and try to make amends...

Regards, Jonathan Brady
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

Other than being sick of this conversation......I guess I'll get sucked in one more time.
I are not ruining anything in my opinion. I am not killing the purity of all boas in the future. Dear Lord.........I am not destroying boas as I know them to be.
There will always be pure animals out there. There will always be a supply of pure BCI's, BCO's, and BCC's. If someone really cares about what they are getting and what they want.......They can find it. If someone wants a "pet store" boa......Well then, you might already risk not having a pure animal. Does this make a bad pet? No way in hell. They need to be cared for and loved just as much as any other animal out there.
My thing is this......You don't have to agree with what I like and don't like. And, on top of that........I don't have to justify my actions to anyone. Especially someone who loves to only think that his opinion is the correct one. If you feel so strongly about this. Breed your "pure" animals and make the "situation" better. And, just think. Now you can charge people more like others I know.......Just because you animals are "pure". But, hey ....It's not about the money right?
John "Sick of this topic" Lokken

as for the price discussion, i don't think that the "morphers" have one leg to stand on vs the purity side of things. two words will prove my case. "sunset boa".
jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

also, don't you think that the effort put forth (generally more in the case of BCC due to the difference in difficulty/luck/whatever it is) should reflect a difference in price?
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

Than all blacks are criminals? One white guy is a part of the KKK....All white are biggots? Or, how about this.....One importer brings in thousands of wild snakes to sell to the public for a profit. Not, for purity's sake. All importers are money grubbers. I would watch the sweeping assumptions you make. They generally lead to trouble. Saying that we all are dishonest because of one person is not only rude.....But stupid.
John "Wolverine" Lokken

all those who participate in the crossing of ssp should own up to their actions. so, for your example of the KKK, no, not all white people are biggots, but the people standing next to the idiot in the white outfit sure are. it's all about the company you keep. and in this instance, the people crossing ssp are all in the same boat because they consciously made that decision.
jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

He is:
1) Way overcharging people for a simple morph to make.
2) He is naming it something and labeling it as a new morph. Which it kind of is........But, that is a very grey area in my opinon.

So, how are we the same when we label exactly what we are selling to the public?
John

My crosses( Dave@ East TN Reptiles) have only produced once.I advertised them as Hog Isle x Hypos............which are exactly what they are.
Back to WC's. In 1984 (I read this in Reptiles Mag) There was an estimated 94,000 balls imported! And that's from one country alone.
Alot of WC die, stress,parasites,refusal to eat...........ect.
Do you own Hypo boas? Their crossed.The 1st breeding was a normal Col to a red CA boa.Sooooooo there's more crosses out there than you realize. Like I stated earlier.......you've made this statement more than once.
I agreed even to breed a pure pair of Hogs
No matter how much you state your opinion......it will change nothing. Personally I have nothing against you.........but your constant repeative post really get my blood pumping.
I was talking to a guy in FL the other day. We talked shop & guess who's name popped up.............yours. I didn't bring it up. He just stated he was also tired of repeative post made by you bout crosses. Come on JB, make your statement(S) and stop this reputition. If I can promise to breed a pure pair of Hogs.................you can promise to stop these post on crossbreeding. We both love snakes & we both love to breed em, thats quite a bit in common there to talk & not bout crosses.Dave

It seems that all I ever hear anymore is whining. Grow up! If you feel there is such a problem, be a freakin' man and take this crusade upon yourself. Buy all the wannabe pure Hogs or whatever the hell you want and breed them yourself. Why must you and Hermann and all the other self rightous biggots try to force your BS on everyone else? I am tired of your whining, of Hermanns whining and have had more than enough of all the whining period! Breed your F-n' boas and let is breed ours.
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There are no STUPID QUESTIONS just STUPID PEOPLE.....quoted by the common sense committee

more of a questioning of values and the individuals ability to discern the difference between right and wrong. basically, how can someone say that it is morally right to breed two ssp of boa together (that act entirely on instinct) that would have never met (in general terms) in the wild? how can someone justify that as being morally right (that is, if you respect nature at all)? i'm not saying i'm morally superior. i'm not saying that at all... promise.
again, no whining here chris, but if you want, i'll whine about you not actually answering the question.
jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

Accept my God.........Or, die. They were "morally" right as well? Right???? Hmmmmm........
John

Should or should not be. I find those are the real monster to watch out for.
John

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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

I won't continue in this light after this response. I do not believe we were overseas to interject our morals ... rather I believe we were over there to protect our citizens at home and around the globe.

if it's not meant to happen then it won't. Very plain and simple.

I see you have taken part in Hermanns 4th Riech...The Boa Brigade.... I really respected your views and the way you handled them....until now.

Feed the propaganda machine and watch it destroy everything....for everybody.

Your no better than someone who breeds a Hog to a hypo, you say it's so wrong but, you fuel the import market. How nice of you to think your motives make you any better than the next person.
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There are no STUPID QUESTIONS just STUPID PEOPLE.....quoted by the common sense committee

I can't say that I agree with that, Chris. "if it's not meant to happen then it won't. Very plain and simple." I personally don't believe in predestination or any derivitive thereof, so you'll probably never hear me say "meant to happen". And if you really want to take that stance, then EVERYTHING that happens was meant to happen. As far as countering that argument, no problem. These animals have brains capable of producing instinctual behaviors, that's it. You put together a male and a female, no scratch that... you put together two males, you may get breeding activity. It's instinct, it's what they do. Now, you put together a male and female, you may get breeding activity and a resulting litter, does that mean that a persons decision to throw those two animals in a cage together should override millions of years of evolution and ecological development? To use your argument, if it weren't for people on this earth, animals of those ssp would NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER have met because it wasn't meant to happen. At best, those two ssp would have NATURALLY integraded with other ssp and eventually run together (but as different ssp - so it's still not the same argument).

i'm going to bed... i actually wish i was on the west coast so i could stay up and continue this because despite what it may seem like, i know you two guys are keeping your cool just as i am and i enjoy a peaceful debate/discussion.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

And in the process stopped the senseless massacre and torture of ALOT of innocent Iraqis!

If cross breeding is bad.
Meaning breeding two different subspecies is bad.
Meaning breeding BOAS from two different countries is bad.

Then breeding humans from two different countries is bad as well.

I better tell the wife to just get rid of our cross baby.
After all I am a Homo sapien Philippines and she is a Homo sapien Americanese and our baby is a worthless mutt.

but then again the wife is a worthless mutt because she is a Homo sapien Frenchese x Homo sapien Indianese x Homo sapien somethingelse

But then again I am worthless too. I am a Homo sapien Philippines x Homo sapien Germanese x Homo sapien Spanishese

Long story short. As long as people properly represent what they are selling then let them do their thing.
I am producing "mutts" right now. And some day I would like to produce "pure" lines as well. And as long as I represent my stuff truthfully.....so what

If it was not for airplanes or boats......me and the wife would never have met and or bred with each other. So the acting on instinct and never having a chance to meet until human intervention happens is kinda weak. Because ALL humans are crosses too.

Let only those of pure blood speak against my "mutts"

Why do folks continue to attempt and compare the mixing of the human genetic pool and that of animals. Humans do enounter other ssp in their environment. I don't believe there are any humans in any collections that are being selectively bred?

There are remote "civilizations" that are still selectively breeding.

Then again...I think in the deep south they are also still selectively breeding. But that is another topic.

If it was not for Airplanes and boats we would not have met.

I would still be on the islands of the phillipines breeding with other filipinos.

but hey..I will continue to breed my "Mutts"
and in the future I will also breed "pure-bloods"
And I will continue to represent them honestly.

As long as we represent our stuff honestly...I think it is all good.

peace

"....they are also still selectively breeding."

HEY!.....I resemble that remark!

Jesse
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"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

for selectively breeding humans.... His name was Hitler.... Now come to think of it.... there are more than enough neo's and kkk to carry on that legacy well into the 22nd century. Ungh!!! And couldn't the idea of people going to sperm banks to get artificially inseminated with sperm from a rocket scientist, or proffesional athlete, or sperm from a particular race be considered a sort of selective breeding?

The human world is full of subspecies.... Take Hermann for example.**joke**... but really, say, if alien taxonomists came along to check us out, do you really think they would classify all races in the same subspecific category? I would think not.

My point is that a snake in a CAGE in an artificial environment of temps, humidity, lighting, anf accessories is NOT natural... and anything we do as breeders or hobbyist beyond the scope of that, be it cross-breeding, or keeping it pure, is STILL NOT NATURAL.

We do it for the love of the Boa. PLain and simple. PEACE....

Jesse Van Atta

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"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

just making the assumption that your opinion is the only one that matters.

Quote: more of a questioning of values and the individuals ability to discern the difference between right and wrong.

How is this not making a moral stance that your way is right but those who cross animals is not?

Quote: basically, how can someone say that it is morally right to breed two ssp of boa together (that act entirely on instinct) that would have never met (in general terms) in the wild?

Or this comment...

Quote: how can someone justify that as being morally right (that is, if you respect nature at all)?

Or this one...

Quote: i'm not saying i'm morally superior. i'm not saying that at all... promise.

This is exactly what you are saying with your comments. It must be nice to feel that you are superior to the rest of the breeders out there or that your stance is the right one and no one else's is. If you are so sure of your stance, buy some pure stock and breed it, just leave the rest of us alone. There's more than enough room in this hobby for the 'perfect purists' and us morphers alike.

Raven
*who's sick of the b****ing and moaning about crosses as well*

I've only produced one litter so far...sold as Colombian redtail boas/Bci - common pet store variety boas, which is where the parents came from. Most pet store boas are Colombian, and that is what mine will continue to be sold as, especially since they 'appear' to be Colombian. However, there is no guaranty WHERE any of the animals originated from - importers aren't all honest and neither are those native people who capture wild stock and sell to importers. They say what they need to to make a living. I am breeding pets, when I do breed my animals, for people to enjoy as pets. As for what I look for in my pairs...actractive animals with good dispositions. Yeah, that's right, good temperments. I'm breeding for temperment because you want a PET that can be handled, not just something that sits in a showcase.

I appreciate and respect animals in the wild, but that doesn't really matter when it comes to captive animals. Population decline in native habitat and habitat destruction DOES matter. Those animals in captivity are not being bred for re-release into native populations. When all the wild animals are gone, that is the end of the story, regardless of what is in private & public collections. Once an animal is lost from the wild, it's lost - period.

No matter how much argument there is on the forums, there will be people who produce both pure and crossed animals. Both are beautiful and both have their place in this hobby.

Off my soapbox now. I've had enough.
Raven

how many times have I said this one?

There will always be people crossing apples tp oranges to make a redder apple, and always people on breeding apples to apples to preserve that natural apple taste

I highly doubt the apple X apple breeding stock will get contaminated because they try whenever possible to pick them themselves. If you are worrying about your stock being contaminated then maybe you should do more research before buying your apples.

On another note...just because it is red and shiny doesn't mean it is a real apple...and just because it came out of Florida doesn't mean the orange was produced in Florida. Worry about your own animals..do you know without a shadow of a doubt that every animal you own is pure? or is from the locality it is claimed? If you say yes..you are a liar! I personally don't know about mine, and I personally don't care... I buy what I like, and so do you...so if you don't like the crosses.. Don't Buy Them..and give up the crusade! You aren't accomplishing anything! This argument has been going on for years!! Give it a rest.......
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

I totally agree with CE. There will always be breeders working with crosses and breeders working with "pure" boas. If he is so worried about what is right or wrong maybe he should stop supporting the harvesting of wild caught animals. Its not like someone is going to take their crosses and release them in the wild to muddy up things, but the taking of wild animals only thins the future population in an already shrinking ecosystem.

Just my two cents

Jaremy Douglas

Animals taken from the wild will not be replaced.It depletes them from their natural surroundings. So which is worse
1) taking & breeding my CB babies ?
2) supporting & buying wild caught animals ?

if there were no crosses, i wouldn't have to worry about buying CB. once you start hitting f2, f3, who knows what it is?
only a few are reputable and honest enough to be trustworthy (no, i don't mean a few as in one or two, but there are more i wouldn't trust than those that i would) when dealing with f2 . so, the crosses force the hand of those who desire purity to go for WC.

however, i must say that i agree with you that it would be a much better situation if we didn't have to purchase WC. that's an argument that couldn't be won by anyone on the "pro" side.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

If you really want to take a look at who does the most damage to wild populations, look at those who eat red meat and those who support the skin trade. It's already been proven time and again that the pet trade has a negligible impact on wild populations, especially in comparison to habitat destruction and the skin trade.

So, as soon as people stop eating dead rotting cow and stop buying skin from dead mutilated snakes, I promise to never buy another WC animal. Matter of fact, I'll take a trip and replace what I've got, how about that?

If you don't know what I'm talking about. Forests are being completely obliterated so that farmers can raise cows. Those VERY hot areas of the world rely on the rain forest environment to keep the ground moist and once the trees are gone, the area is good for about 2 years before it turns to desert (forgive me if I'm a little off in my explanation, I'm trying to recall this from an environmental science class I took years ago). Once it turns to desert, more of the forest is wiped out to make new grazing land for cows. Obviously habitat destruction wipes out populations leaving NO surviving animals in the area.

So again... once people stop eating meat and supporting the skin trade, I'll gladly put back the ONE WC animal I have.

JB
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

Hey Jonathan since you are in the mood to make idiotic suggestions here is mine...If you can get every single one of the Purist breeders to stop the selective breeding, which does as much damage to the original "pure" line, I will personally go to every morphers house and take there morphing license away. Sound good?

If you go back and read every responce you make on this subject you always have an "excuse" to why what you do is "good, and pure" while anyone who disagrees with your "correct and accurate views" is wrong and doesn't have the right to have there own reasons.

I don't totally disagree with you on this Mr. Brady, but come on, lets try to step back and look at it like adults and not arguementative grade schoolers. I think all of us can be right and just breed what we want to breed. And one last thing, for you to say anything along the lines that if someone breeds a cross they are dishonest, sheesh that is more childish then most responses to heated debates on this forum. Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

If habitat is being lost due to farming how does removing an animal from the this habitat do anything but add to the tragedy. WC's were neccesary in the beginning but now there are enough reputable breeders producing "pure" boas and we don't need to be stealing boas from the wild so you can be 100% positive that the boa you have is pure. But as we all know everything you say is right and we are all wrong. Try to be more open minded.

>>This may seem like a rather stupid question, but I honestly have to wonder, are there any of you out there who promote crosses who would have no problem with there being not one pure specimen of any locality in captivity?
>>
>>Some of you come off so strong in your stance that it seems as though you have zero appreciation for the natural beauty that evolution has developed over the years. Please tell me I'm wrong...
>>
>>I know that at some point in my life, if I have kids and they become interested in boas and they ask me what a Cayos Cochinos Boa looks like and I can't show them a pure specimen in person or at least a recent pic, then I think we as hobbyists, breeders, etc... have failed miserably. I think that we need to wise up and consider the possibility that some IBD epidemic could sweep through many peoples collections and totally wipe out the vast majority of Hogs and all we'd be left with are X's... What would your stance be at that point? Would your previous transgressions against this species no longer be justifiable in your eyes, or would you continue to alleviate your conscience by spouting off worthless drivel?
>>
>>Another thought, how sad is it that people will eventually have to call a good number of the boas in captivity "boas" because saying, "well, it's certainly not a monkey" is just too vague, but classifying it any further than "boa" would be impossible because it's lineage is so screwed up that any venture in that direction would not only be a lie, but also superficial and only a guess at best.
>>
>>In closing, it really disturbs me that so many of you can take your responsibilities to this species you say you love so lightly. You continue to shirk your duties and justify your actions however you see fit, but you know that the saying "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" certainly applies to you. I hope that someday, hopefully sooner than later, you'll realize what you've destroyed and try to make amends...
>>
>>Regards, Jonathan Brady
>>-----
>>Jonathan Brady
>>My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

What's all this talk here about boas and cross dressing? Girl friend, no respectable cross dresser would be caught dead without at least two or three feather boas in her/his wardrobe. Now I want you big boys to just simmer down because there is nothing wrong at all with boas and cross dressing.
Wait.......Oh never mind. lol

Feather boas and cross dressers...love it!!

First I get "bagged on" for enjoying crossed snakes..........Then you give me a hard time about my red and blue feather boas that I own. Man, what is this world comming to? LOL!
Good one. I always enjoy someone who can bring some humor to a subject.
John

Hey, as long as they match your pasties and other accessories...go for it!!

This crossed my mind too...not that people were doing a "bad" thing (by putting together combinations that would have probably never met on their own) but that there were so many morphs out there that no one would want the "plain and ugly" snakes anymore. However, I know that is simply not true.

I have a normal retic that I've wanted to breed for years, and seeing all these to-drool-for morphs in the reticulated forum hasn't changed my mind. I know I'm not the only one that has this interest. Certain breeds are more popular and certain morphs are way too expensive for "common" folk. I can't seem to justify spending a few hundred dollars for a corn snake, even if it has unique coloring. My point is, there is still a need for (what appears to be) pure strains, otherwise importers would be bankrupt.

Now, I'm sure you didn't mean to come across in such a way to incite a heated debate but the way it sounded to me, we might as well have an "American Reptile Association" to get our reptiles papered for purity like AKC dogs!! LOL! But, as with anything, we're always going to have people around who only want "brand" names, while others just buy what they like. It's our differences that make life interesting.

i don't care anymore. do what you will...
jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

If all of the people that ever attempted to breed wild animals only did so to preserve the genetic integrity of the wild populations then we would not have any pets to enrich our lives or farm animals to eat. If you think the ancestors of your cat or dog looked the same as your animal your sadly mistaken. For thousands of years people have been selectively breeding wild animals to suit their needs. Unless you go out and collect the animals yourself the chances of getting a mating pair of wild boas from the same location is extremely rare. Just because a pair of boas are imported from the same exporter does not mean that they were collected from the same area. Also just because a pair of boas is collected from the same state or country does not mean they are the same type of boa. Furthermore, just because one boa looks similar to another boa does not mean that they came from the same location.

Anyways... until recently I also felt that these crosses were wrong. I brought up the subject to another breeder and he shed some light on the subject to me. The majority of people breeding boas are doing so with a goal in mind. Regardless of weather or not they are breeding morphs or crosses most breeders are attempting to produce "prettier" snakes, enhancing certain characteristics and repressing other characteristics. This is an unnatural process!!! Since we are not preserving wild populations when we selectively breed, why not just breed any two boas together that will produce pretty offspring? He pointed at the boa I was holding and asked if I thought it was a boa that would be found in the wild.... what do you think:

both depleat. I seen your WC Suri pic the other day.So when ya have kids.....take em to the zoo because they won't be hardly any snakes in the wild. Again, Once you make a statement.........there's no since in repeating the samle ole post over & over, Dave

;

someone buying WC because they don't want to buy a cross.

as for making a statement and leaving it at that, i believe you're more guilty of that lately than anyone, Dave.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

1) You come on this public forum and encourage the boycott of honest hard-working breeders who have done more to preserve Hog Island boas than you ever will. Paul from PM Herps produced a litter of Hog Island boas... he has done his part to preserve these animals. Has he not? Yet you come on a public forum stating you will not buy from him because... What have you done or plan to do in preserving these animals? There are several breeders out there who produce both "pure" and locale crosses. They are more than doing their part when they produce pure litters.

2) Your argument that crossing will lead to the extinction of locale-specific animals is just a prediction. Just because your adopted Dad Herman says it will does not mean it will.

3) All this talk of natural is BS. Like Tracy (I believe it was her) pointed out a while ago... there is nothing natural about taking two boas, throwing them in a four foot cage, and forcing them to breed with mates that YOU choose.

4) Some of you guys have become a group of Purist Snobs. You attack rather than debate because your argument is baseless and in many cases full of hypocrisy. You are simply trying to force your preferences and beliefs on others by any means necessary.

5) Your pointing to the Sunset Boa issue is just another baseless point to your argument that I wont even attempt to defend.

One more thing, I know this is argument is old... but I don't think these guys should be allowed to continue attacking people's integrity, names, morals, hard work and animals freely. I know I wont...

Oz

I love (used to) come to this forum,get answers.look @ other peoples snakes.........ect
Someone ( won't mention names) said Herman had been shopping for Hypos.........I don't know if thats true or not........Hypos are crossbreeds.The 1st breeding was a red CA to a normal Col.
I though that JB had chilled..guess that's what I get for thinking! I've always said ,"A word to the wise is suffient" Also if you'll notice,9 out of 10 times when JB post,Thomas S always post how good JB post was ,then here comes Herman. The three musketeers?!
These three Anti crossbreeders really get under my skin. There's more to life than constant,repeativly,re posting bout crossbreeds. Dave
p.s. ain't she purdy ?

I am assuming that what you are trying to say is 'Pretty'.....
Anyway, you just said that you are sick of this argument, yet you continually feed the fire and post your replies. Slightly hypocritical and very strange.
Take care,
Eric

Yes, your boa is very PRETTY. I wouldn't personally perform that cross, but I will admit that it is an outstanding looking boa.
- Eric

>>I love (used to) come to this forum,get answers.look @ other peoples snakes.........ect
>> Someone ( won't mention names) said Herman had been shopping for Hypos.........I don't know if thats true or not........Hypos are crossbreeds.The 1st breeding was a red CA to a normal Col.
>> I though that JB had chilled..guess that's what I get for thinking! I've always said ,"A word to the wise is suffient" Also if you'll notice,9 out of 10 times when JB post,Thomas S always post how good JB post was ,then here comes Herman. The three musketeers?!
>> These three Anti crossbreeders really get under my skin. There's more to life than constant,repeativly,re posting bout crossbreeds. Dave
>>p.s. ain't she purdy ?
>>

;

I don't think anyone would argue that there aren't some hard working X-men out there. But, why can't any of you see Jonathan's / Hermann's et al's point of view?

They have a point. And I believe you have a point. But I think the former should be congratulated, not slated every time they voice their opinions here!

One question: I breed San Francisco Garters. There are an estimated 400-500 left in the wild. Should I cross them with an alino sirtalis ssp. to introduce the gene? Or, maybe with a Blais Flame to create something funky? Personally, I think it should be ILLEGAL to do so. We have a responsibility. Don't we?

..... I agree with your attitude towards locality bloodlines.

But I do not think you helped your point when your argument went away and your accusations began.

Next time stick to the positives about your way of doing things and you will have a better chance of convincing people that you have a valid point of view.

Just my opinion....

Gus

Well I personally agree with the whole arguement that pure boas should be kept pure, but also agree with morphers/crossers. But since 99% of the purists are not interested in breeding and keeping PURE boas that are 100% representative of the actual wild population, I do not see how a single purist has the right to complain...Until the PURISTS can get down off there soap boxes and follow the words they try to preach I will follow what ever path I see fit, And how many "purists" refuse to purchase a BCC unless it fits an exact blueprint of what they personally like in that snake? I would say all of them. I have never seen a single Local keeper who will even consider a locale specific snake to be a specific locale unless it is a wild caught.

The arguement of crosses can be fought just as strongly the other way on how all the purists say "well that snake isn't pure it doesn't have (insert trait here)"..It really really ticks me off that the Purists and the crossers are at each others throats constantly about the same stupid bs...Why not the purists step back look at what they think is right, the crossers step back and look at what they think is right, then all of them look at the facts.

I apologize for the broken sentenced rant...this subject is stupid and will never be resolved..Lets just agree to disagree, and realize just because a crosser has the freedom to do what he wants doesn't make him right, and the Purist that does the same exact thing crossers do (breeding for a specific trait) are no more accurate or correct in there misconstrued vision of being right. Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

I think mixing and matching locales is fine. There are plenty of guys like Mr.brady who feel strongly about keeping blood "pure" so they should be the ones to make sure that they breed only true locale boas. Therefore they will continue to exist. As far as evolution goes, God gave man dominion over all animals, and if we want to mix em up a bit, then i think its fine. im sure that it happens in nature as well. Take the blood pythons, for example,if that dont look like a python with a boa head , then i dont know what does. I think the individual should breed what makes him or her happy.

"Everyone has the right to breed what he wants." That's correct but you must not forget that we are not talking about cats and dogs but endangered animals which are designated in app. II or even I of the CITES law.

Regarding the money thing: There is nothing wrong in making money. And demand and supply creates the equilibrium of the market. But one can make money AND serve the nature and one can make money and serve only himself.

Regarding the wildcaughts: If every boa breeder would only breed true boas, they would be available in such a number that nobody would be forced to buy wildcaught animals in the future because of the lack of availabilty of true boas or the lower price of wildcaughts.

If the "morphers" would only use other already existing morphs for their projects and refrain from crossing true boas the relation between both kind of breeders would be much better. I agree that there is also a market for morphs and crosses and that they have their justification as pets. But please abstain from further use of true boas.

Since the "overseas" topic leaped:

Meanwhile the dumbest should have noticed that the war on Iraq had only two purposes:

1. Securing the influence in the region (including the oil)
2. protecting Israel

The war on Iraq was the badest judgement your government ever made since Vietnam. I already predicted in this forum a huge increase of terror. I recall a malicious reply kind of "where is the terror? everything is OK now"

Watched the tv-news in the past days? And this is only the beginning. Furthermore in several years (at the latest) you will have a theocracy in Irak (like in Iran) and then the real problems begin when the Mullahs are ruling. And if you don't let them rule they will stir up hatred until you have so much victims due to terror until you gladly leave them alone.

Most of the people there hate us more than they hated Saddam. The dumbest fool should have known this before.
And where are the weapons of mass destruction? At least your government is honest enough not to fake it. This is what I appreciate.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Thats EXACTLY what you posted. Do you support the exportation/ depletion of snakes in the wild as JB does? Why can't you breed snakes in your own collection? I may crossbreed, BUT have NEVER to my knowedge bought or ever would a WC animal.
You complain "constantly & repeative" ALL THE TIME bout crosses,but yet your adding to extiction in the wild. How ironic.ALL.........and I do mean ALL my Hogs are CB
I've had good friends that ran pet stores.When I started seeing thin,sick WC animals.......I no longer bought anything from them....down right to a water bowl. I dislike WC animals.It's a shame to help exstinc animals...............stupid me.I keep forgetting you only buy WC caused your forced to.
Dave X men
how bout W C Stockle?or
H E Stockle.......H E being Help Exstinction

I appreciate your stance regarding wild-caught animals and share it.

You may laugh now since I bought a lot of them but my objective is to breed them (and I was successful in it several times so far) and provide the people with captive born animals.

If you are blaming me for buying wildcaught animals you are partly right and I am not proud of it. But I hope to save other wildcaughts in the future with my breeding.

I have bred 20 true surinams this months. These are 20 surinams less that are exported from the wild. More will follow.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

. Beware of WC animals.They deplete the wild,have parasites & die from stress. Not to mention ticks & mites. Do ya support the "boa farms" or all the babies that are sold to the pet trade only to die. I can't beleive after your statments you address the fact I csossbreed my CB animals and sell em EXACTLY for what they are. AND.............I don't take from the wild.X man Dave

There's 4 more gone from the wild. Gosh 4 in one day,not to mention wholesalers,petshops and hobbyist. Wonder how many per day?

You have a nice saying over there: two wrong does not make a right.

Buying wildcaught animals in order to breed them prevents new exports in the long run.

Crossing true animals with morphs is a waste of resources and does not contribute to the availability of true captive born boas.

And I bet that every day more boas die in the wild because of the deforestation as because of the export.

So consider this when you eat your next burger and maybe you want to contribute in the increase of captive borne PURE boas in the future instead of clinging to the only argument that you have against the "purists".

No further reply. All is said now.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

The morphers do not contribute to the availablility of True captive bred boas?

So your pure boa contributes to the availability of true captive bred boas.

But my morph does not?
Your true boas will help in the anti depletion of WC.
But my "false" boas will only contribute to the depletion of same

Does that mean my morph is a false captive bred?
Are you saying my morphs was not born in captivity?
Are you saying the more boas I produce the more boas from the wild will be depleted?

The 21 boas I just had. The 12 before them and the 17 before them ....they were not really captive bred? What are they if they are not truly captive bred? Are they wild caught?

I myself dont like crosses,hybrids,alot of the morphs,as well as some species of snakes and animals in general.The reason is because if it doesnt happen naturally then it shouldnt happen at all.Some species of snakes are just flat out not very good looking (not ugly just undesireable as a pet or breeder).Same goes for some animals in general,some i would love to have others can stay where their at.

Crossing different species/subspecies together to me just isnt the best idea that human nature has ever come up with,but it will still happen no matter what.Some crossing does happen in the wild but shouldnt happen in captivity,but people obviously think that hey mother nature can do it so why cant we.Its been that way since man first stepped foot on this planet and it will never change.We're one of the rare species that has to prove everything wrong or die trying.Maybe mother nature gave humans too much of a brain to think with and now we're getting dangerous.Whatever the reasoning behind someones madness to crossbreed,hybridize,interbreed,inbreed,or whatever you want to call it,it will eventually lead to not having as many pure animals as we have now in captivity,it will also change the way we as herpers differentiate between 2 species/subspecies.Some of the boas now are to that point, so imagine what their offspring will be like if bred to something completely different.

Now i'm not a radical on this agenda but consider myself more of a neutral naturalist.I've saw a few crosses that have caught my eye and thought they were very good looking for crosses but wouldnt outright buy them because of that reason.Same goes for hybrids.Like they say to each his own and leave mine alone.Heres a piece of advice that my grandpa told me and fits everyone on this planet including myself,"A Wise man becomes wiser if he can take his own advice and listen to others as well,If not then he is a fool." Regards Bill McLeod

Well Jonathan,
I would like to put a few things into perspective, seeing that you brought the movies into this conversation I would like to paraphrase Agent Smith from the Matrix (not X-men but then again I’m not a big comic book fan…) “Human beings are a virus, the only other organism on the planet that will use up all of it’s resources until it’s own demise is a virus and that is what Humans do!”
This hobby is in no way ever going to prevent the extinction of the Boa Constrictor spp. At best we can hope to alleviate the pressures that the pet trade has placed on wild population, but the skin trade still far out ways the number of wild caught animals that the pet trade does. (look at the cites export allowances for each country, you will be shock on how many skins are shipped vs. how many live animals.)
The best we can ever hope for is to create a Boa Constrictor Domestica, a domesticated line of Boa Constrictors that will never be mistaken for smuggled wild caught animals and that will subside the need for all wild caught animals both for the pet trade and for the skin trade. Mankind has taken this burden onto itself for every kind of animal that it ever found the need for. Chickens, Turkeys, Cows, Horses, pigs, dogs, cats and even crocodiles, just to name a very few, have all be genetically altered through cross breeding, selective breeding and even gene splicing. While I don’t believe any of us have developed the ability to play with genetics on a DNA level in our snake rooms, I do think that you undermine the work that we all are striving for.
A purest breeder is at best a misnomer and at worst ignorant of his own effect on the very beloved locality he has chosen to work with, Please let me explain. A breeder such as yourself and Hermann and many others all have some of the most beautiful animals I have ever seen! The colors and flawlessness of the animals is amazing, but it is also a false representation of the truth. I have yet to see a Purest (or a better name Locality Breeder) say “look at this animal. It is ugly, muddy, and speckled and the colors all just kinda blend in together, but it is a true representation of about 50% of the animals from that region!” Nope, that won’t happen. You and many others are under the mistaken impression of “as long as these are two of the best looking animals from the same locality, then I am breeding a pure locality boa” Wrong! You are indeed altering the genetics of that locality by bringing two well above average animal’s genes together. In the wild the odds are fairly low that such animals would cross each others paths and breed to produce the “Super Locality” Boa that you would produce. Most Locality breeders are doing the exact same thing that the Morph breeders are, just with a less diverse gene pool, they just refuse to accept that type of logic. What in fact you are doing is producing a genetically shallow snake with great looks.
What a Morph breeder does is basically the same thing, but we make no bones about it! I would be more then happy to be able to say that I assisted in creating a sub-species of Boa Constrictor that no longer infringes on the wild populations. I can have this Boa in Yellow, White, Blue, Sliver, with saddles or striped or no pattern at all! The Boa is calm and docile, I can let my kids handle it and it can sit in my lap while I watch TV!
Now you make the point that some of us do not appreciate the beauty of a Locality Boa Constrictor, and I say you are wrong. I do think that they are beautiful animals, I can appreciate each and every Locality I have ever seen, from Mexico to Argentina and all points in between, but there will come a day and it will be with in our life time, that all Boas are protected and no longer allowed to be in the hands of private owners. Won’t it be nice at that time that we can sit down, lobby the powers that be and say WAIT! There is a line of Boas that is not of any genetic Value to the wild/endangered population! We can produce them by the tens of thousands and we can provide enough to keep all sides in the debate happy?
At that time I will still have my beloved animals, while you may no longer be able to have your, sad but very possible.
By the way I did see that X-man II movie and it wasn’t all that bad.
Thanks for the debate
Jim Hopkins
Hopkins Holesale herps

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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

I am glad someone finally was able to post what I have been trying to say for as long as I have read threads on this topic...I just wish all of the "morph/cross/color/peak/saddle/etc/etc" breeders would understand we are all of the same cloth when it comes to breeding boas...GREAT GREAT GREAT post Hoppy Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

mmmm

mmmm,.,..,.,..
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

... that it was the CIA who was responsible for the demise of the first democratic government in this region (except Israel, of course): Iran, before the Shah.

This government started to nationalize the oil companies and that was too much for the guys in Washington. So much for bringing democracy to the Middle East.

The worst thing is the bad judgement (to aviod the word ignorance) of the responsible persons.
Instead of creating stability they made a huge mess that will turn out by far more worse than the conditions before.

With their action they don't fought terrorism, they created it, they enhanced it. You will live to see...
You will never bring peace in this region by US soldiers waving the Stars and Stripes flag.

The people there are proud, so proud and religious that they die for their matter. Actions like this only feed their hatred.
What a foolish enterprise this was!

You are right: France and Germany were against the war. And the outcome already shows that they were right. And if you are not convinced by now, you will be in several years.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I am glad you did not deny the meating between Germany and Iraq's oil minister.
I am glad you did not deny the increase in german exportation of UN unaproved goods.
I am glad you did not deny the talks between France and Germany uniting. (paris Berlin Tandem)

as far as terorism...
What would you do if it was your country they bombed.
What would you do if they chose to bomb civilian targets instead of military targets in your country?

Don't be mad just because the US and the British stopped germany from taking over the world.
Don't be mad just because the US and the British diminished germany's chances of gaining from Iraqi oil.
Don't be mad just because the US was successful in becoming a super power and germany was not.
Don't be mad just because germany was AGAINST war and at the same time was letting the US launch their missions from German airspace and German land.

Just don't be mad.
and don't turn this discussion into a political one.
Because your country is not perfect either.
It is BEAUTIFUL but not perfect.

ps. nothing against Germans I am part german.
My grand mother is a Von Hoelzel (spelling?)
She spoke Fluent German, Spanish and 5 different Philippine dialects.

Now let the "morphers" do their morphs.
Let the "x-men" do their crosses
and Let the "purist" do their pure blood.

and let those of us who are purist AND x-men AND morphers do our thing. As long as I represent my stuff honestly....then let me do my thing.

peace

You seem to have done a good job in keeping the political thread going here!

I would just like to mention that not all countries react to terrorism with violence. England suffered for years to the IRA, but we never bombed Ireland. I could give you more examples but you seem so widely read (uh-hum) that I'm sure you already know them.

A large part of the world has a problem with the US. You bully other countries, you bring them to the ground, you murder thousands of people, and you cause more destruction to our planet than most countries combined. Your president is clearly an idiot, who was 'voted' in illegally. You are a super power and yet a huge percentage of people are uneducated and live in trailor parks. Firearms are available freely, as are drugs. You impose sanctions, and further another countries demise. You consume more cocaine than the rest of the world combined and yet think it's Colombia's problem. You take people half the way round the world and treat them worse than animals are treated in a slaughter house. Your governement are (often) hypocrites and liars.

The simple fact is, there are many people in the world that hate the US government. You too have a beautiful country, and wonderful people. Personally, it's one of my favourite places.

But, unfortunately, you treat the world like it your own to use and abuse. These terror attacks will continue.

Is it so hard to see why???????????? (see above)

Now don't get me wrong, I am against such terror attacks. But I understand why they're happening, and believe they're so easy to stop.

So when did the US murder thousands of People?
How is the president voted in Illegally? If it was Illegal he would not be president.

Yes firearms are readily available. I have five of them. And I will be buying more too. It is our nations way of making sure the people will always be free from tyranny. That way it will be democratic and no "King" will rule us.

"Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with the view of confiscating them and leaving the population defenseless." --Vladimir Ilich Lenin

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935
Then he confiscated all the registered guns and killed the people

The war in Iraq is considered illegal by most countries in this world. The American and British killed thousands of Iraqi innocents. Personally, I consider that murder.

As for your president? Come on! You honestly believe there was no foul play when that idiot was voted in?

Good luck with your guns! And the killing!

You are correct..it is easy to stop terrorism from the currently acting factions...All we have to do is bend over backwords and allow them to do as they fully wish and give them what ever they want...But wait..Then someone else will see how easily it is to get what they want by being a bully so new terrorists will arise...but like you said it is easy to get rid of terrorists we can just give these new factions axactly what they want to..but wait..another group pops up...It is idiotic to say we are the cause of terrorism because we do not put up with it...Perhaps the IRA would have been dealt with a little easier if force was an option... Just my opinion on this view...Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

I can keep asking the same question but will it ever sink in to your heads?

"Why is the terrorism taking place in the first place?"

Does it not seem strange to you that most world terrorism is directed towards the US?

Push people in a corner and leave them no other option, they will strike back. Look at the Palestinians. Will the situation ever change? I doubt it. Is it a Jewish issue? Yes.

It's a crazy world, that's all I can say.

When I opened your posting I looked like a poem *LOL*

There had been export from some German companies to Iraq in a way that violates the UN sanctions.
The responsible persons went to jail. So don't blame a country for a crime that was committed by single individuals.

As to the super power: Germany had been a super power a little more than 60 years ago. Just see how it ends when a country thinks it can rule the world. Think about it!

There is a cooperation between Germany and France as neighbours. And I am glad it is this way because both countries fought 3 wars in the past 150 years.
And if you would know the mentality of the French people you would not even think about uniting! Who told you this crap?

The U.S. and the british stopped Germany from gaining oil from Iraq because they wanted it.
Where Germany tried to get it in trade the U.S. and Great Britain killed innocent people to get it. How moral!

OK, and how many innocent people were bombed in the U.S. by the Iraqis?
1000? 100? 10? None? correct: none!
How many have the U.S. and their ally bombed? 1000? rather 10000!

It's a pity that you don't have inherited the intelligence of your noble grandma.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

So bombing military targets is the same thing as bombing inocent civilians?

yeah some bombs went astray.
But most of the bombs hit the targets as planned.

Okay we liberated them.
Gonna help them set up government.
Gonna help them on their merry way.

I think that is much different from trying to take over the world....don't you?

You're a deluded individual. Long live America!

My country is not perfect....but we are trying.
Your country is not perfect....but I am sure you guys are trying.

Why don't we agree to disagree and let people just do their best?
let us all just enjoy our hobby.

If I offended anyone I apologize.
Let the purist keep the localities pure.
Let the x men do their thing.
Let the morphers find us new and exciting morphs.

Good luck to all.
Enjoy the hobby

...you all put alot of time and effort rowing about it. Just aload of hot air if you ask me!
Time Out Children

I am talking about the oil for food program AS IT STANDS right now. That's why I have a problem with it! Is the UN framework being followed? No. So why would I be talking about the UN plan? It is not in effect! Is the US in control of Iraqi oil? Yes. Is there a surprise there? No. Are the Iraqi's going to pay to rebuild a country that we have done a good job of destroying - unfortunately yes. Have the sanctions been lifted? No. As for the environmental concerns, the US government hasn't got a clue, and frankly doesn't care less! Great attitude eh?

No surprise there then eh? Your government has no respect for the UN, and as such, has no respect for world democracy. Who the hell are you to decide the UN's plans are wrong? And why aren't they allowed in Iraq now? This whole thing is a fiasco that has been conveniently swept under the carpet.

And please, don't insult my knowledge!

your question of is the UN frame work being followed and your answer of NO. How is that the US fault? France is the one in charge of the Food for oil program. France is the one gaining lots of money with the food for oil program. France is the one who is suppose to audit and to a degree..enforce. But blame it on the US.

Who the hell am I to decide the UN plans are wrong?
Who the hell are you to say they are right?

Here is the UN plan.
"Iraq follow this rule" Iraq does not follow.
"Okay follow this one isntead" Iraq does not follow
"Okay follow this one isntead" Iraq still does not follow.
"okay lets make up a totally different rule"

Great UN plan. The great UN has accomplished nothing.
The US should leave the UN like they wanted too.
The UN is a club house for insecure governments with nothing better to do.

Actually, the UN is a place where countries from throughout the whole world can reach agreements on the same stage. It is not for the US to decide that they know better. Which of course it thinks it does. The US is in control of Iraqi oil, not the French. Anyway, I hope your deluded dream of US importance one day gets shattered - you have it coming to you! And it can be avoided, that's the sad thing. Keep up world destruction in the meantime!

Who am I to decide they are right? Well, I'm not. But considering they have been agreed upon by representatives from all world cultures, I'll go with them - as opposed to you!