Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, to start off I'm a rat/mouse owner. Also I have absolutely nothing against keeping snakes as pets(I'd actually rather like to have one myself, just don't know what kind to get, I'll get into that in a bit ) and I also don't know much about their care, so if I'm off base somewhere please correct me so if the info that I have posted is wrong somehow, I'd like for this to be as correct as possible if I end up being able to get enough support/information to mail it in. Also if I miss something, please do tell

I know that the majority of the snake owners here whole heartedly are against the use of live feeder mammals(no matter what kind they are) and since I love my fuzzies I was looking into doing like some countries have done and seeing if I could mail letters(chains of them would probably be nice as well) to see if I/people who think like I do could get the US to pass a law banning the sale/trade and feeding of live vertibrate animals to animals(since snakes aren't the only ones who eat them) unless the snake is in danger of dying of starvation.

The big points I was thinking of using are as follows:
I know that a lot of snakes areinjured/killed each year by feeder animals that just didn't want to be eaten. I've heard some stories... There was one person at a vet's office I went to once that was saying that her boyfriend's snake had been nearly killed by the rat they had given it, yet they still were feeding it live animals. I know it is a big misconception that they can only eat live rodents(look at all the ones who do eat frozen/prekilled meals) There is another person I know who watched his friend's snake be completely devoured by a rat, and still insists that if he ever gets one(which he wants to do) that he will still feed it live rats(though I have the feeling his wife would not let him, she adores my rats). I briefly worked at a pet store in FL and the owner of the place did not do anything to debunk that myth. He'd tell people that the only thing that a snake should be fed is a live rat/mouse ect. depending on its size. I asked him about it one time and he claimed that since that is all they would have in the wild, that it was the only way to feed them. The best I've heard from someone is that she refuses to feed her snake living prey because she doesn't want to lose a $50 snake over a $5 rat.

The claim that "that is what they would do in the wild" is ridiculous in my opinion. I know some snakes eat birds/other reptiles/insects ect in the wild, so why are these pet store owners promoting rats as a staple diet vs. a varied diet resembling what the snake would eat in the wild, when it would be much healthier that way? I'd rather be feeding my pet a balanced diet that would make it healthier and longer lived than an unbalanced diet that would end up making it die of malnutrition a few years before it would have died of old age. Plus, you can't seriously expect for me to believe that a snake that lives most of its life in trees would make a special trip to the ground whenever it gets hungry just to snap up that tasty rat, when it has birds right in front of its nose. If I put my oscars into a goldfish tank they would eat them until they explode, yet goldfish have chemicals in their blood that prevents an oscar from absorbing the vitamins that they need. Plus they eat more veggies and insects than fish, thus ending up with a severely unbalanced diet if only fed those goldfish. Tasty? Yes. Fun to chase? Definately! Good for them? No.

More against that argument is that there ARE other animals out there that would eat live foods in the wild. If I let them, my rats would kill and eat my parakeet, and my mice. Does this mean I should give them a diet consisting of nothing but mice and parakeets? I should certainly hope not. They eat their cereal and pre mixed diet fine. And the only kind of meat they get to kill for themselves are crickets. Also on this subject, in the wild an animal has a chance to excape from its potential eater. In a tank that animal must stay with the snake until it decides that it is hungry. Sometimes the snake will eat it right away, other times it won't. Then that feeder must live in close quarters with something that is to eat it, without food, little water, and not too happy of a remainder of its life. Either to starve to death, or to be suffocated/poisoned and eaten.

I have read that feeding animals live food will increase their agression level. This may not be so bad if you never handle your snake(though what happens in the event of an emergency when you need to handle it to get it away from danger, or to a vet's office?) but for the people who do, I'm sure that it isn't a good thing that moving things normally equal food. Especially not for your hands.

Also wouldn't it be better to feed your animal a frozen rat that was fed a healthy diet and then killed, instead of one who lived on hamster food and is half dead while it is alive? Rat housing in most pet stores is notoriously bad. Aren't there certain illnesses that a snake can catch from a rat? Parasites at least, right? Especially if they are crawling with illness. The frozen ones on the other hand are sterile and cannot transfer disease. A question that comes to mind is that pine and cedar bedding are toxic to rodents. The oils from them can kill them, and they will accumulate in the liver of the animal as it is trying to rid its system of them. Would those toxins also be bad for snakes? I know I've heard that it is bad to house reptiles on them as well, yet most stores that sell feeder animals house them on the pine or cedar just for cost effectiveness. I also don't see why pet stores would not want to sell the frozen feeders for their own gain as well. When you have to keep animals alive you also must pay for supplies for them(at least the ones who are good enough to keep their animals fed and on some sort of bedding instead of in a bare tank with nothing to eat except their dead cagemates) With the frozen ones they would only need to pay for the animals, and power to a freezer, which most of them have anyway for fish food and worms. I'd think that would be better than keeping live animals on hand to care for, even though most of the time they don't get any sort of care. A lot of people on the rat forum I am on have told horror stories of finding rats with massive abcesses and infections, wouldn't that be bad for a snake to consume?

I'd also think that it would help end irresponsible breeding of rats and mice, since they would be looked at more as pets rather than only as snake food. And I'd think it would do a little bit to curb people just going out and finding a snake in the wild and bringing it home because it was pretty, wouldn't a wild caught snake be a lot less likely to take to frozen foods than one that was bred and sold as a pet?

That is about all I can think up off of my head. As I said, if someone can find something I missed, or add onto what I already have please do

I was also wondering what kind of a snake may be good for a beginner? I would not be able to get one for quite some time most likely, but I want to gather information before I do happen across one and find out that I have no idea what I'm doing. I love garter snakes, unfortunately the pet stores around here will not stock them since they can be caught wild, which is something I would not consider doing. If I do end up getting a snake, I'd like to get one that will stay small. If anyone knows of a snake that doesn't ever get to be more than 3 feet and can be handled I'm all ears Otherwise I would not consider something that can get over 5 feet normally, or that has a hard time adjusting to frozen foods. I'd also like one that I could handle. Oh well, as I said, just thinking of a maybe I'd like to someday

Well, a few points.

The main reasons for feeding f/t, are to prevent injury to the snake, convenience, humaneness for the mouse, and to decrease the chance of disease/parasites being transferred from the mouse to the snake.

That and the fact that since I'm such a flipping softie, if I could only feed live, I'd have about 20 pet mice and a verrrry disgruntled snake.

But I am extremely wary of having a law like that. There's so much that could go wrong. Would it require a vet's note that the snake required live food? Would stores under the law refuse to sell a live mouse to even someone whos snake couldn't accept f/t for fear of a sting or breaking the law? Mice and rats are easy to breed. So it would be incredibly easy to create a 'black market' of sorts breaking the law. Or for people to just breed their own. And snake breeders often start off their babies on live baby mice the first few times. Maybe they could start them on f/t, but such a move with a delicate hatchling could cost the baby snake it's life. Where would that and other such grey areas fall under the law? There's also the risk that it would create a false sense of security with breeders of fancy rats and mice who consider the law to be total protection.

There's also a risk that certain groups that want to ban the keeping of reptiles entirely would use this potential law as a springboard for more restrictive measures. Reptile keepers have good reason to be paranoid about such things. So with all due respect, and I know your intentions are good, I for one would fight against this potential law tooth and nail.

Your best bet would be education, finding ways to introduce new snake owners to the benefits of f/t. Maybe joining your local reptile club? Good way to learn and educate at the same time.

As for good kinds of beginner snakes, corn snakes are docile, hardy and come in many colors. They can reach 5 ft but are quite manageable. Thayeri king snakes are also a good bet. Colorful, docile and keep around the 3 ft mark. AZ mountain kings are also pretty nice, around 3 ft mark, marvelous markings. In each case, talk to the (reputable) breeder to ensure that the snake in question willingly accepts unscented f/t.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Could you edit the first dozen paragraphs of that down a bit? I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, and I'm certainly not going to wade through it all.

As to recommended first snakes, there are plenty that fill the bill. I'm partial to rosy boas, myself, if you want small, extremely tame, and attractive.

Feeding a snake live food does not make it aggresive. Feeding a snake inside its enclosure does not make it aggresive. My snakes are all fed in there enclosures, some are fed live some not, the ones that are normally bitey (ATB's and coachwhips) still bite but my snakes that are known for being mellow (cornsnakes) do not.
I'd like to know why you think this would be a good idea, I feed live to several of my snakes some are hots some are not. They die seconds after they get bit by my rattlesnakes and my mangrove snake just will not eat a dead mouse or rat it will only eat them live.
How would you enforce a law like this?
You have to remember that mice and rats come in lots of different sizes so if somone says they are feeding there cornsnake live food it doesnt mean that the cornsnake is in any danger of being killed by the food. The cornsnake could be a hatchling eating pinkies.
I raise my own rats and i feed about half live and half pre killed, it just depends on what i am feeding.

And condense that down some.

i totally agree with you that what happens in nature isnt always the best for the animal, and any good keeper will do whats safe over whats "natural". but i feed live on general principal. i dont want to take the feeding instincts out of snakes. when people pamper animals generation after generation in captivity with safer and safer conditions, we get things like my oriental shorthair cat that beats up a mouse but doesnt kill it, or a shi tzu dog thats hair will grow into its eyes untill its blinded. ive always fed live, my snake always eats the mouse immediately, and if he ever didnt, i would have the presence of mind to remove the mouse. a food item being left long enough to seriosuly harm the snake can only be blamed on the keeper.

feeding live does not make the snake more agressive. the snake is aggressive or it isnt. my python thats a very aggressive and quick eater is gentle as can be, as much as allowing himself to be kissed on the head! if you handle the snake even semi-regularly he wont confuse feeding time with handling time.

i understand your concern about keeping of rats and mice at pet stores. it is a shame the poor conditions. and i know they can be a host for mites and frozen is a better idea because of that. but i dont think you should be able to dictate a law about what a competent snake owner thinks is best.

I'm sure you mean well, but you're completely out of line in wanting to pass another law and get the government involved in one more aspect of our lives. I'm not trying to be too harsh on you, but I want to make clear exactly how bad an idea this is.

The debate about whether feeding live is healthier than feeding frozen/thawed is one that can run forever with no conclusions reached. Some snake owners feed f/t, and some feed live. When you say that you "know that the majority of the snake owners here whole heartedly are against the use of live feeder mammals," you're just spouting nonsense. The zealots on each side try to draw people to their way of thinking, but we'll likely never see a consensus. Even among those who feed f/t, I doubt that you'd find more than a few percent who believe that feeding live should be outlawed by the government. If you were to succeed in passing such a law, you'd be hated by most of the snake-owning community.

As other people have mentioned, some snakes simply won't eat f/t food. For them, your law would be a death sentence if anyone actually enforced it. I guess the native snakes that won't eat f/t could be shipped back to their natural habitats and released, but no snake owner is going to be happy with that solution. Shipping non-native snakes back to Africa and releasing them because they won't eat f/t is not practical, and the notion that people willingly agree to this loss of snakes that cost thousands of dollars is ridiculous.

The notion that rodents raised for live feeding are somehow less healhty than those raised for pets or for f/t consumption is likewise silly. Many people who feed live animals to their snakes raise those animals themselves and carefully control the diet that is fed to those animals. They are no less healthy for the snake because they are raised for live feeding.

Your argument about variety in the diet is also silly. Forcing people to use f/t feeders is not going to put more variety in their snakes' diets. Likewise, there's no study that I've seen mentioned here suggesting that eating rats for a snake's entire life isn't perfectly healthy. You're just grasping at straws with that one to support a bad idea.

As other people have mentioned, the enforcement issue is another problem. Do you have any concept of the fact that law enforcement costs money? Do you really want the taxpayer to have to pay for "mouse cops" to go around checking to see whether people are feeding live rodents to their pet snakes? Do you really think that regular law enforcement people should take time from chasing robbers and murderers to chase people who might be feeding live rodents to a snake? Do you really think that someone should go to jail for feeding a live rodent to a pet snake? Do you really think our court systems should be tied up with trials of people accused of feeding live rodents to pet snakes? If you passed this law, it would be only one more law that was spottily and capriciously enforced. You wouldn't stop people from live feeding, but every so often one of those people would have his or her life ruined by your law. I see no justice in harassing someone for feeding a live rodent to a reptile.

I'm glad that you like your mice and rats. I don't blame you for not wanting to feed them to a snake. I'm sorry that it bothers you to think that people feed live mammals to reptiles. (It bothers me that people watch half the shows on TV, but I'm not going to urge a law against stupid TV shows.) If you want to use your First Amendment rights to urge people not to feed live, you're certainly welcome to exercise that right (as long as you don't turn advocacy into harassment). However, you're out of line when you try to force others to follow what your feelings in this area. The United States has problems that need solutions. The feeding of live mammals to reptiles is not one of those problems.

You sound young, and young people often let their idealism turn to foolishness. Maybe you won't understand for a while. I hope someday you will understand. However, your energies are better directed at solving practical problems than they are at trying to legislate your own feelings about little fuzzy animals on eveyrone else.

All the best,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I do not believe the bill would ever make it to a state legislature or ballot (depending on how the state enacts its laws) for consideration. Federal legislation is completely impossible for an issue such as this. The bill would also be to difficult to word to allow necessary exceptions and still remain even remotely enforceable. I also feel that a potential back lash of attempts to lobby for such a bill would see it snow ball into a general ban on rodent eating snakes by hobbyists all together.

Bottom Line: Such a bill would be seen as either too unworkable to even be considered, or else it would be made "workable" by simply banning ownership of rodent eating snakes.

Should we outlaw those too? Should we be fined for killing that cute fuzzy mouse thats chewing our wires and spreading disease? NO MORE LAWS, big brother is breathing down our necks now.
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More important matters then mouse and rat control...I can just see the rodent police showing up at my door for feeding a live mouse to a poor hungry snake because the petstore was out of frozen...
We all know that mass bred animals that are controlled by the govt are in better conditions(like the debeaked chickens or the pigs crammed in tiny pens)...Sorry but it wouldnt really make a difference for the better..
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Your description of the quality and condition of live rodents intended for snake consumption somehow reminds me of chickens raised for human consumption. Not helpful, just an observation.

Our school district mandates that live prey not be fed to reptiles in front of students. So a cricket cannot be fed to a bearded dragon but a mouse can be fed to a frog or short-tailed oppossum (an ugly sight). Just an example of how basically unworkable such rules are when formulated rashly.

There are snakes that will refuse all but live food. Also, I have fed live food with good results in the past and have never had any problem with it. Not everyone feeds dead mice to their snakes. Most people do it out of convenience more than anything else, frozen mice can be bought in bulk and stored in the freezer.

Similarly, if you were to pursue such a law, you better include goldfish, mealworms, crickets, fruitflies, etc as well. In addition to that, what is better about a mouse getting frozen alive, or killed and frozen than eaten by a snake?

Do we really need more laws? I'd say we need to get rid of alot of the ones we have.

You shouldn't try to interfere with the perfectly natural relationship between predator and prey.