Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Whats up croc fans,

We just got this tiny gator into the rescue today. The couple that brought it in said they rescued it from a frat. Somehow the frat house had the gator, and when summer came around, everyone was heading home and nobody was taking the gator, so this couple took it in. so even though they meant well, they really didn't have any croc experience to speek of.

They asked me how old it was and I guessed 1, maybe 2 years at most. That's when the girl told me she had been caring for it for more than four years already! If you count the time it had been at the frat house before she had it, it would be over five years old. Has anyone else ever seen a gator this tiny at that age? How healthy/unhealthy does it look to expert eyes? (I don't work with crocs every day)

I am not sure, but have a suspicion the poor guy had an all-water tank with no land area. They donated the tank to the rescue, and it was around 100 gallons, but there was no basking furniture in it and I didn't think to ask that question until they were gone. I am thinking if he was in an all water setup for this long there is no way he could have stored much energy for growing because he would always be burning calories to swim. Not to mention he wouldn't get any UVB (they at least had a UVB light) while in the water.

Any care suggestions to help him back where he needs to be? I am planning to give him a fresh UVB bulb and heat lamp, a good basking area in a mostly water setup, and the biggest baby mice he can eat (vitamin dusted).

Our rescue works mostly with snakes, turtles, and lizards, so my croc experience is pretty modest. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Just heard back from the surrendering owners about cage setup/feeding and here's what they said:

"he did have an area to climb out of the water. We had a few rocks that he was able to lay on piled in the center right under the main light and those tiny rocks (that are still in the cage) were pushed to one side making them seem like the shore line. The tank water level was higher on the other side so he could swim. As for the eating, we fed him about once a week. He never went over 10 days without fish. However as I mentioned before he sometimes did not eat the fish. "

This does not seem like a bad setup to me at all in a 80-100 gallon cage for a tiny gator. Perhaps the UVB light had long since run out of UVB. Also, maybe the temps were not condusive to eating on a regular basis. And maybe it was getting way too many "goldfish" and not much real nutrients.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks,
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

I personally think that the diet is more of a concern than a lack of UVB. It really hasn't been determined as to whether crocodilians really require it. However, there are several people in here that donot provide it and their crocs do perfectly fine. The biggest thing to be concerned about are proper heating (allowing for proper thermoregulation) and a proper diet, which as I am sure you know, Goldfish doesn't cut it. The rat pups seems like a good start. If you can, try to get ahold of some Mazuri crocodilian diet. Some small pellets might help to improve his diet some. Of course, give some meat items too, but the mazuri diet might help.

Hope this helps,

Chris

>>Just heard back from the surrendering owners about cage setup/feeding and here's what they said:
>>
>>"he did have an area to climb out of the water. We had a few rocks that he was able to lay on piled in the center right under the main light and those tiny rocks (that are still in the cage) were pushed to one side making them seem like the shore line. The tank water level was higher on the other side so he could swim. As for the eating, we fed him about once a week. He never went over 10 days without fish. However as I mentioned before he sometimes did not eat the fish. "
>>
>>This does not seem like a bad setup to me at all in a 80-100 gallon cage for a tiny gator. Perhaps the UVB light had long since run out of UVB. Also, maybe the temps were not condusive to eating on a regular basis. And maybe it was getting way too many "goldfish" and not much real nutrients.
>>
>>Any other thoughts?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>-----
>>Jesse Rothacker
>>Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
>>Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
>>www.forgottenfriend.org
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

Well I just spent some time this afternoon with some zookeeper friends at ZooAmerica in Hershey, PA. They have a handful of gators there, including 1-year-olds, which are much stronger and bigger than this guy. The most noticable difference is the muscle tone in their legs and especially tails (and everywhere else, really). This poor guy doesn't even use his tail to swim because he has so little muscle tone. After looking at other gators his size (although they were four years younger) the main difference was muscle tone everywhere. Next to other gators, this one looks like skin and bones.

I'll try feeding him once every other day for a while, then a couple times a week, and once he is finally back to where he should be, just once or twice a week. I'm going to dust his stuff with calcium or multi-vitamin to give him a good mix. It will have to be better than the guppies and goldfish he was chasing before.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

My gator is that big maybe even a little bigger and she's just under 2months old...a hatchling gator is subposed to grow 12'' a year for the 1st two years, that gator should be atleast 4ft at 5 years....your also subposed to feed the gator atleast 3 times a week..not just once..and your correct feeding it goldfish for 5 years isnt exactly the correct way for him/her to get the nutrients and vitamins it needs, although live fish do have good nutrients in them, buts its also good to mix it up and sometimes evem inject vitamin suppliments directly into its food...try feeding her live shrimp or even crickets...if your going to use frozen food make sure you do put vitamin suppliments in it, because once frozen they loose it.
Goodluck!
Jake

In less than 24 hours with us the gator has already eaten, which I am very pleased about. I offered him 2 small rat pups and they were gone in no time!
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Jesse
Obviously a tremendously stunted animal. Shows the incredible perseverance of a crocodilian to have survived such adverse conditions. I know you want to make it better over night but that would be the worst thing you could do.
Ease him into a more substantial diet. He can and will want to eat more than you're going to feed him. Just remember he'll eat more in a week than he has had in a month.
He will literally eat himself to death if you let him.
Obviously he will never be what he could 've been but he can still be a substantial animal.
Baby steps after a month take it up a notch after 2-3 months you probably can feed him all he wants. But start slow his body is not use to it.
Danny Conner

Hey Danny,

I agree overfeeding him is just as dangerous as not feeding him at all. I was planning to go with one vitamin dusted rat pup every other day as long as he seems to be passing them ok. a couple experienced friends thought that should be fine. what do you think?
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

I think that would be great.
D.C.

Hi Danny,

I am trying to research the actual effects of stunted growth in reptiles. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on but can't seem to come across anything that covers this particular subject other than for a brief second to say, "Stunting growth is harmful!". As I mentioned before, there is a pet store owner here in my state that actually recommends to customers to reduce the animals caloric intake to reduce growth so that it makes a more "suitable pet". He claims it has NO negative effects to the animals at all. I know for a fact he is wrong, but can't seem to find any studies or documentation stating exactly what problems growth stunting can cause to the animal. Do you happen to have any particular documents, books, etc. that you can recommend me reading to help me find the answers I am looking for?

Thanks and Best Wishes,

Chris

>>Jesse
>>Obviously a tremendously stunted animal. Shows the incredible perseverance of a crocodilian to have survived such adverse conditions. I know you want to make it better over night but that would be the worst thing you could do.
>>Ease him into a more substantial diet. He can and will want to eat more than you're going to feed him. Just remember he'll eat more in a week than he has had in a month.
>>He will literally eat himself to death if you let him.
>>Obviously he will never be what he could 've been but he can still be a substantial animal.
>>Baby steps after a month take it up a notch after 2-3 months you probably can feed him all he wants. But start slow his body is not use to it.
>>Danny Conner
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

Chris
I don't. And any research literature may be hard to find. For while self imposed "fasting" is well documented can you imagine some herpetologist trying to get a grant so he can starve a perfectly healthy animal enough where he actually stunts the animal?
While scientifically that would be interesting...
Anyone who has been around the pet trade for a long time knows of amazing stories of survival. I have to admit that even in some extreme cases of stunting alot of the animals still seem to be sexually viable.
Of course in nature there are lots of animals with shortened feeding seasons compared with counterparts sometimes these animals become there own subspecies.
As far as in a captive situation I guess these people also keep the animal to cool I can't think of any other reason why a croc or a snake would'nt let the owner know it was time for dinner.
Danny Conner

>>Chris
>>I don't. And any research literature may be hard to find.

I agree, it's very hard to find. Izzy Dupont was kind enough to give me a copy of his crocodilian directory which has helped me to find lots of resources to read up on, which has undoubtedly helped me on other aspects, but not quite on the subject I am studying. No such luck I guess...

For while self imposed "fasting" is well documented can you imagine some herpetologist trying to get a grant so he can starve a perfectly healthy animal enough where he actually stunts the animal?

It really doesn't surprise me in this day and age to be quite honest with you. Humans have this thirst for knowledge and will go through any lengths to obtain it. However, I guess thats the only way to obtain the knowledge, is to try it.

>>While scientifically that would be interesting...
>>Anyone who has been around the pet trade for a long time knows of amazing stories of survival. I have to admit that even in some extreme cases of stunting alot of the animals still seem to be sexually viable.

Well, theres some information. At least if the animal is given an opportunity to get back on track, then at least it can still perform similar functions as if it were raised properly and naturally. Now, some of the more northern alligators, while they winter over at times would have a slower growth rate than one kept in constantly optimal conditions.

>>Of course in nature there are lots of animals with shortened feeding seasons compared with counterparts sometimes these animals become there own subspecies.
>>As far as in a captive situation I guess these people also keep the animal to cool I can't think of any other reason why a croc or a snake would'nt let the owner know it was time for dinner.
>>Danny Conner

I agree, you would think that a Reticulated python that is being improperly fed would give it's owner a nice wake up call.

I appreciate your time, thanks for the info!

Chris
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U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org