Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so i went to the vet today and he didn't know much about reptiles, like he wasn't a specialist and no one knew of any specialists and he was a friend of my parents so i thought i would try. like he sees reptiles but it is what he has learned over the years

he couldn't find anything in the poop but both uros have lost weight, well hugo had not lost anymore weight since he was weighed at christmas but helga was weighed today and down 35 grams. anyway he said he wanted to dose them since they had signs of parasites, eg weight loss and extremely runny poo

i said i usually gave them panacur but i think i just didn't clean the cage well enough this last time.

anyway he dosed them at the office but didn't give me anything to take home, deworming-wise so i asked on the way out what they gave them and they said ivermectin. i nearly fell over. i was so stunned i didn't even say anything and i know i should have.

do you think i should do anything, like make them drink lots of water or anything. he gave me another medicine called albon, some kind of sulfate thing in case they have a bacterial infection causing the runny poop. now i am afraid to use it. has anyone ever heard of this?

if anyone else gets sick while i am here, i am just driving to DC. i thought the guy would have used panacur because i said i normally use it
-----
vonnie
***The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
— Mark Russell***

I'm not sure what to do about the ivermectin. But, if you are treating for parasites, you really need a fecal done so that you can see what needs to be treated. I don't know a lot about ivermectin off hand,, but I believe that it is used against worms / nematodes. Normaly with herps, pancure is preferred for worms because of its wide range of safety. Albon is the drug of choice for coccidia, I've heard from a friend, who used it to treat a coccidia infection in her dragons, that it is pretty hard on the animals, so you would want to make sure that they actually have coccidia before giving it. The other drug commonly proscribed for herps is Flagyl for flagelates and other protozoa infections. If you don't have this already, Understanding Reptile Parasites is a must have: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1882770218/102-0597911-4320102?v=glance&n=283155 If you have access to a microscope you can do your own fecals (it has great step by step instructions) and save yourself a lot of money. It also give you recommended doses, dosing regimes, and the drug of choice for various parasitic infections (you can use it to double check your vet).

-Alice

Depending on what they are diagnosed with, this chart could prove helpful in terms of cleaning: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/BRM/resources/Disinfectants/AntimicrobialSpectrumDisinfectants0904.pdf If they do have a coccidia infection, you'll have to use an ammonia based cleaner in order to kill the oocysts (bleach/hypochlorite, nolvasan etc won't work). Since ammonia has stong fumes, you'd probably want to switch off between two containers and it is important to immediately clean up any feces or soiled materia to prevent re-infection. I believe that most of the wormers are also only effective against the adults and that viable eggs can still be passed in the feces, so the same would apply for them.

-Alice

well see that is the thing, there was nothing in the poop this time but it was a big oozy pile. last september hugo had pinworms. then he lost alot of weight so i figured the move across the country maybe stirred them up again? got him treated at christmas but the lady only gave me a three day dose, no follow up two weeks later.
where would he get these parasites from that you are referring to?
i am so stressed out, i wish he just would have given me meds i was used to. he made it sound like the albon was an antibiotic since he said it was for bacteria in the stomach, is that what the cocco (spelling) things are?

if this ivermectin is ok should i call him back and ask him about doing it again in two weeks?

i hate making them go through this
-----
vonnie
***The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
— Mark Russell***

I'm not a vet, so I can't really say whether or not ivermectin is the best drug for your guys. But, since it does not seem to be the drug of choice, it would be worth talking to your vet about why he chose to prescribe it over the safer pancure (I think that ivermectin is the wormer of choice for dogs and cats, if his experience is primarily with these animals, maybe that's why?).

Coccidia are small protozoas. I did a search on Albon, apparently it is also used to treat some bacterial infections. All my dealings with it have involved treating coccidia and that seems to be what it's prescribed for in herps.

Crickets are a well known vector for pinworm infections in herps. I'm not sure if anyone has done any studies on coccidia and feeder insects. Coccidians are common in many reptiles, especially wild caught, as long as herps are kept clean and only infected with species of coccidia they are adapted to deal with, and not under stress, they are often asymptomatic. Even if your uros are cb, if they were allowed to feed on adult feces they could have picked something like coccidia up and the infection may have persisted at low levels. But if they are suffering from a heavy infestation, it should be easy to spot in a fresh fecal. Maybe the vet prescribed Albon to cover his bases? It never hurts to ask why a particular medication was prescribed. If you have a regular vet, it may also be worth getting a second opinion. I've dealt with some vets who seem to prescribe medication more for the customer, than the animal. It seems strange to me to prescribe a wormer and an aniticoccidial drug, rather than a straight course of antibiotics, if they had a clean fecal...

This is a good page I'd forgot I'd bookmarked: http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/ It doesn't have much about uros specifically, but has a listing of antiparasitic drugs and antibiotics at the bottom.

Good luck with your guys; I don't have any uros (yet) but I love reading about all of yours and have been following Helga's progress for sometime. I hope everything works out okay!

-Alice

Vonnie, I only remember one person getting ivermectin treatment for their lizard, it was a collared and did not make it. It seems that it is very difficult to dose small animals/lizards and they often overdose. This drug is used for large cattle type critters.
Panacur, is also used on horses,,, but is much safer and it is usually quite effective. I believe thats why it it used more often.

Of course I am not trying to scare the bajebbers out of you, hopfully your Vet knew what he was doing. I have heard other stories some were fine after, some did not stir for a few days, some looked a bit goofy (mentally) for awhile, off a bit.

Just hang in there if you notice anything call them immediately.

Like I said hopfully they will do well.
-----
PHEve / Eve

Contact PHEve

>>...and they said ivermectin.
I haven't had any problems with it that I'm aware of.

>>he gave me another medicine called albon,
Don't got it.

>>some kind of sulfate thing in case they have a bacterial
>>infection causing the runny poop. now i am afraid to use it.
>>has anyone ever heard of this?
Got it. Easy to deal with.

>>i thought the guy would have used panacur because i said i
>>normally use it
Normal usage may signify (developed) resistance to the med and therefore not be an ideal choice and not all bugs are naturally susceptible to it.
-----
uromastyx geyri (Saharan/Nigerian), hardwickii (Indian),
macfadyeni (Somalian), ocellata (Sudanese), ornata (Ornate), benti pseudophilbyi

thanks to everyone for the information. helga is out basking. hugo has been sleeping all day but when i picked him up earlier he would walk around and be curious. i also bathed them earlier and they hate it when i do that but they had poop in their tails and i want everything in that cage spotless.

i scrubbed that cage with 10% comet/water solution and then i let it dry/air out last night. bleach makes my head hurt and i can smell it in the smallest amounts and i couldn't smell anything this morning before i stuck them back in.

with the panacur treatment the med dose gave me a good idea of when to clean, start of treatment and end of treatment and then again in two weeks. should i just scrubb the cage again really well once i am done with this week long prescription of albon and then maybe again in two weeks for the life cycle?
-----
vonnie
***The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
— Mark Russell***

I've dealt with pinworms on several occasions coccidia once. I was more extreme with the coccidia case, but my routine was basically the same:

Give the first dose of medicine. Empty the cage and clean it completely. After all crud is removed, THEN bleach it with 10% solution (allow to stand 10-15 minutes) and rinse until your fingers bleed.

Scrub and bleach all cage furniture and discard all wood (with pinworms, I just baked the wood). Set these things aside until the treatment is completely over and you're sure the cooties are gone.

During treatment, I line the cage with old bath towels that I replace (and bleach) every day, and spot clean any poo smears that they manage to get on the walls or floor of the cage. The only other thing I keep in the cage with them is something to hide under - something disposable or easily bleached (daily). With pinworms, I bleached the cage weekly. With coccidia, I bleached the cage each night. Nowadays, with pinworms, I'd stick with chlorhexadine, now that I know about it - coccidia I'd still use bleach.

Keep them like this until the treatment is over, and you've received a clean fecal from the vet an appropriate amount of time later.

You have to adjust all your heating, too, since you remove basking rocks and such. Maybe it sounds like overkill, but it's worked well for me to prevent reinfestation. I hope you're able to get it resolved - it sounds completely frustrating.
-----
Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
2.1.2 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

I feel sooooo bad for you, you've got a real tough one on your hands there. I remember using both those meds on chameleons years ago, both were quite rough. I still suspect its not worms, although thay may be present. Can your vet check for crypto, or kidney problems, this whole thing is bringing me down. Hang tough....

Bleach even at full strength is not effective at killing coccidians. The scrubbing action should, however, wash away most (if not all). I use the 10% bleach solution for all my regular cleaning. But, if I had to deal with a coccidia outbreak, I would switch to ammonia (just be sure not to mix the two).

-Alice

i am just going with the flow and trying not to think about it.

today they won't come out of the hide spot but then again it is snowing outside so they might just feel the weather outside.

the vet didn't mention anything about the coccidia when he gave me albon, he just said the sulfa stayed in the gut better to help bacterial infections or something like that. he was more concerned with treating bacteria that may or may not be there, he mentioned nothing about protozoans.

i don't think it is kidney failure either. their poop has that smell, that parasite smell and they weren't acting sickly until i took them to the vet, ho hum. for now i am just going to say it is still pinworms and keep cleaning their cage all the time

i think i am going to get some baby food later. i don't force feed it to them, i wipe it on their lips and let them lick at it. they haven't eaten in the last two days and i want them to eat
-----
vonnie
***The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage.
— Mark Russell***