Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I came home from work today to find my 12'+ burm in a very unusual place, for him. He was up on top of his hide box, just chillin' out. This is unusual because he never really has expressed much of any desire to climb before. So I thought this was a bit interesting, as I watched him resting comfortably up there, I proceeded to think about what life must be like for him (and my other four snakes).

From what I could imagine his perspective might be: "Sleep all day, maybe get a drink of water, then back for a nap. I'll get up in a while and go warm up over there - then I'll come back and cool off in my hide box during a little nap. Sooner or later it'll be dinner time - and a whopping dinner it will be! (I hope). Maybe that guy will let me outta here later on for a while so I can stretch out, take a look around his cage, and sniff out some new scents. I'll tell ya, there just aint much to do in here these days. Maybe I'll climb up there and take a nap. Hey - this is different. This is a pretty good view from up here... zzzZZZzzz, zzzZZZzzz,..."

Now, that may or may not be a good life - for a snake. But its hard for me to identify with that as being fulfilling. So when I get to take him out I like to let him roam the house (under my watchful eye, of course), but that's just not all that often. I mean, as far as I'm concerned just being in a box for a few hours would be bad - never mind living in there!

So I wonder if there's something I can do to help keep him happy in his (forced) captivity. Dogs get play toys, so do cats, birds, ferrets, rats, mice, etc. Now, I understand that snakes don't exactly have a 'playful' nature - but they do have nature. What might he like? How about a fresh branch with some leaves on it every now and again - just to give him something new to smell and explore. Anything along those lines.

My point, crazy as I must sound right now, is simply that I'd like to be sure that if I'm keeping an animal captive in my custody for my own enjoyment ( hence, "pet" ), then I'd like to help keep him from feeling like he is a prisoner.

Ok - so, am I crazy?

Thanks for reading
- Mark
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My personal website: www.antegy.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries

- 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
- 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
- 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
- 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
- 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on photo.net
-------------------------------------------------------------
My photography on modelmayhem.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Me on myspace.com

>Ok - so, am I crazy?<

NOT!!! Mark, anyone who has a passion for reptiles is crazy, at least to the general public. I actually like your train of thougt. Unfortunately, to give them enough to make them feel free you'd have to designate a whole room to them at least. Put in a cave, a pool, add a couple heavy branches for hangin' out on. I think that would make him as happy as a snake could be made happy Oh, and a sliding glass door for lettin' in the sunshine. Toss in a large rabbit or two(or an unruley child)every couple weeks and he's be the king of his castle. Whew!! Now ya got me goin'. Anyhow, that's my take on the matter.

Quig

>>>Ok - so, am I crazy?<
>>
>>NOT!!! Mark, anyone who has a passion for reptiles is crazy, at least to the general public. I actually like your train of thougt. Unfortunately, to give them enough to make them feel free you'd have to designate a whole room to them at least. Put in a cave, a pool, add a couple heavy branches for hangin' out on. I think that would make him as happy as a snake could be made happy Oh, and a sliding glass door for lettin' in the sunshine. Toss in a large rabbit or two(or an unruley child)every couple weeks and he's be the king of his castle. Whew!! Now ya got me goin'. Anyhow, that's my take on the matter.
>>
>>Quig

I AGREE COMPLETELY!!!!
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0.1 wife
0.4 kids
2.0 kids
0.1 columbian redtail (gravid) 6ft
1.0 pastel 6 1/2 ft
1.0 burmese 10ft
1.0 redtail baby
0.1 surinam(purple)
50 rats
3.4 dwarf hamsters
1.1 dogs
0.2 farret
8.24 mice
1.0 guinie pig
0.2 cats

Also agreed.. I have wondered in the past how to make my reptiles feel happier. If I had the money I would turn my whole backyard into an "indoor tropical rain forest" if that makes any sense. Would be awesome I think but that's next to impossible, lol

"Toss in a large rabbit or two(or an unruley child)every couple weeks"

Mother-In-Laws are also acceptible to feed out! That thought makes me wish I had a burm instead of a ball!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

>>Mother-In-Laws are also acceptible to feed out! That thought makes me wish I had a burm instead of a ball!

Ick! Mine would certainly need to be frozen for a few weeks first.

I've always just read this forum without posting, but I have to say, that was the greatest post I've ever read on any forum.

We all know that world class zoos provide many enrichment opportunities for mammals, primates, and even birds but reptiles have historically received the short end of the stick...well, times are changing. We know that some herps react quite positively with periodic enrichment. At my facility, this may include placing a live potted plant in a burm cage...they'll spend hours tongue flicking and checking it out. For our indigos, I place dead rodents in a maze of interconnected PVC pipe; they get extremely excited trying to find their "prize". Our king cobra LOVES it when I place a fresh stump from the woods inside his cage; last week, he spent three hours tongue flicking every square inch. Some herps could give a rip but ever since I have switched most of my cages to semi-naturalistic, I have seen a marked increase in activity levels, much more inquisitiveness and alertness and even better feeding responses (due to them being more active in their little world). We had some rare rattlesnakes arrive that steadfastly refused to feed in traditional paper subsrate, single hide area, water bowl set ups. So, we went "au naturale" and what a turnaround we saw...vicious feeding responses, unbelievable alertness, etc. So, I am a HUGE fan of looking outside the box and providing an enriching environment for my herps....I don't prescribe to most breeders who simply keep them in sterile surroundings with no enrichment (which is what I adamently defended for many, many years so I used to be one of those folks too).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I came home from work today to find my 12' burm in a very unusual place, for him. He was up on top of his hide box, just chillin' out. This is unusual because he never really has expressed much of any desire to climb before. So I thought this was a bit interesting, as I watched him resting comfortably up there, I proceeded to think about what life must be like for him (and my other four snakes).
>>
>>
>>
>>From what I could imagine his perspective might be: "Sleep all day, maybe get a drink of water, then back for a nap. I'll get up in a while and go warm up over there - then I'll come back and cool off in my hide box during a little nap. Sooner or later it'll be dinner time - and a whopping dinner it will be! (I hope). Maybe that guy will let me outta here later on for a while so I can stretch out, take a look around his cage, and sniff out some new scents. I'll tell ya, there just aint much to do in here these days. Maybe I'll climb up there and take a nap. Hey - this is different. This is a pretty good view from up here... zzzZZZzzz, zzzZZZzzz,..."
>>
>>Now, that may or may not be a good life - for a snake. But its hard for me to identify with that as being fulfilling. So when I get to take him out I like to let him roam the house (under my watchful eye, of course), but that's just not all that often. I mean, as far as I'm concerned just being in a box for a few hours would be bad - never mind living in there!
>>
>>So I wonder if there's something I can do to help keep him happy in his (forced) captivity. Dogs get play toys, so do cats, birds, ferrets, rats, mice, etc. Now, I understand that snakes don't exactly have a 'playful' nature - but they do have nature. What might he like? How about a fresh branch with some leaves on it every now and again - just to give him something new to smell and explore. Anything along those lines.
>>
>>My point, crazy as I must sound right now, is simply that I'd like to be sure that if I'm keeping an animal captive in my custody for my own enjoyment ( hence, "pet" ), then I'd like to help keep him from feeling like he is a prisoner.
>>
>>Ok - so, am I crazy?
>>
>>Thanks for reading
>>- Mark
>>.
>>
>>-----
>>.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My personal website: www.antegy.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries
>>
>> - 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
>> - 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on photo.net
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on modelmayhem.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>Me on myspace.com
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I usually haven't had the space to do too much, and at the refuge there are more snakes than manpower so things are kept simple there to minimize the work load.

But I have made a few observations that match yours. My burms and boa that seemed perfectly happy to lay in the corner of a large cage all day, every day, spent hours every day climbing when I built them a vertical cage with branches all the way up. With some other snakes, something as simple as placing thier hides and water bowls in a different place after cleaning seemed to be enough to spur quite a bit of exploration...

>>With some other snakes, something as simple as placing thier hides and water bowls in a different place after cleaning seemed to be enough to spur quite a bit of exploration...

Forgot to mention that I was never completely sure in this scenario that they were enjoying the oxploration as opposed to being stressed out becuase they couldn't find their way "home".

Sounds like you've got more long term results that probably give me my answer...

I do believe that some familiarity is important but mixing things up a bit is a healthy stimuli in my opinion....there will still be enough familiar odors to make this snake realize that it is in its "home"; I do tend to keep the hide areas and water basins in the same place but I do like to add something different into the cage.....this sounds so strange as I have never been a big fan of enrichment but having tried it and having practiced it over a number of years, I am slowly shedding my old stubborn ways and trying to see things outside the box a bit (w/in reason!).

>>>>With some other snakes, something as simple as placing thier hides and water bowls in a different place after cleaning seemed to be enough to spur quite a bit of exploration...
>>
>>
>>
>>Forgot to mention that I was never completely sure in this scenario that they were enjoying the oxploration as opposed to being stressed out becuase they couldn't find their way "home".
>>
>>Sounds like you've got more long term results that probably give me my answer...
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Naturalistic vivaria are far superior as far as mental health goes, in my opinion of course. It seems some of us share this view. So as natural as you can without compromising husbandry perameters and ease of cleaning to much and you're doing A-OK.

In the summer, you can't beat a supervised stroll in the backyard.

And Rob, it seems I"ve missed some of your newest additions, I'll be back! I am a huge O hannah fan!

Ian

I forget the name of the author (it's early in the morning!) but the paper is in the stack behind me. From a serpent ethology study I conducted, tongue flicking was considered the best measurement of interest in snakes, and rearranging cages was found to have the highest tongue-flicking scores of any type of activity. They have such fantastic spatial memories that rearranging cages must force them to stay interested in their environment. Few reptiles "play" as we consider it in mammals, but the softshells I had for awhile loved to attack and chase around balls...
Unfortunately, my "enrichment" of my male Spilotes cage has just given him a face-level platform to bite me off of.

>Unfortunately, my "enrichment" of my male Spilotes cage has just given him a face-level platform to bite me off of.<

LOL, you might want to rethink your placement just a touch.

Quig

I gotta second Rob on this one [especially since I'm his exhibit consultant] - however, here's some scientific evidence of naturalistic vivarium designs benefits:

'...increasing data concerning the pyschological, ethological and physical requirements of reptiles suggest that animal well-being is best served in naturalistic conditions. Behaviours observed during this study indicate that reptiles in naturalistic environments were the least stressed, and those in clinical environments the most stressed.'
Naturalistic versus clinical environments in husbandry and research - Clifford Warwick and Catrina Steedman - from Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles ed. by Clifford Warwick, Fredric L. Frye and James B. Murphy - Chapman and Hall 1995
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977

Bear in mind that any activities we provide for reptiles come from a human point of view, and we also tend to see results from our point of view. I'm not saying that none of it is true, but I do think we tend to be happier when we see animals doing what we think they should. Certainly some stimulus is good, but I doubt that what makes a primate happy will affect a herp or fish.

Hey, ever try to provide an enriched evironment for a teenaged boy with an xbox????
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

>Hey, ever try to provide an enriched evironment for a teenaged boy with an xbox????

Boy, can I ever relate to that one. But getting back to reptiles, I do think creating a more realistic look and feel to the enclosure is certainly a stimulus to a reptile. I don't believe it to be negative either. Gives them something else to do and somewhere else to go without leaving home, so to speak. They can search out a different hide or climb if they wish. It just gives them more options than a box with another box inside. Snakes are mostly hunters by nature, therefore this also gives them different places to search out a prey item. It just allows them to use thier senses a little more fully, which I see as being benificial to thier overall health.

Quig

yeah but I gotta be honest. I have tried on many occasions to change things around in my ball python's enclosure, but no matter where I put things he honestly moves them back to the same place they were before I did it(and he seems upset until everything is perfectly in the same spot... hard to tell about the upset with the lack of posture clues one would get from an animal with more appendages or for another example... a wife). Is mine just neurotic or has anyone else had that happen?

My igunana loves change and seems to really enjoys exploring new things or riding the dog down the stairs, but the python (in a closed room without other animals to stress or harm him) went straight into his hide that was placed on the floor when I was cleaning out his cage last night. No exploring, just straight back to his home. He does explorer in his cage thoough, but not until he puts everything in place.
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

If i move or change anything in my BP's tank she goes off feed. she is the pickiest snake ever if i switch stored that i buy my rodents from she goes off feed. and forget about frozen prey she has no iterest at all even in a brained one or one dipped in chicken broth

Ok, I am really glad that we are on this subject, in fact I consider it to be one of the best subjects this forum has seen in quite a while.

As far as enrichment items are concerned, Mr. Carmichael has mentioned placing logs,etc. from outside into their enclosures to add some different scents,etc in their environment. This sounds like a great idea! However, is there any major risk of introducing something harmful into their environment by doing that? Various bacteria and insects could hide themselves within the log. Is there any major risk of affecting health?

Next...

Does anyone do any type of enrichment activities with other reptiles? Large monitors, etc? I know this is slightly out of the realm of snakes here, but I suppose that they could fit in this discussion as well. What other things could be done to increase quality of life for captive reptiles of all kinds and would be perfectly safe without risking health and safety?

Chris

>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I came home from work today to find my 12' burm in a very unusual place, for him. He was up on top of his hide box, just chillin' out. This is unusual because he never really has expressed much of any desire to climb before. So I thought this was a bit interesting, as I watched him resting comfortably up there, I proceeded to think about what life must be like for him (and my other four snakes).
>>
>>
>>
>>From what I could imagine his perspective might be: "Sleep all day, maybe get a drink of water, then back for a nap. I'll get up in a while and go warm up over there - then I'll come back and cool off in my hide box during a little nap. Sooner or later it'll be dinner time - and a whopping dinner it will be! (I hope). Maybe that guy will let me outta here later on for a while so I can stretch out, take a look around his cage, and sniff out some new scents. I'll tell ya, there just aint much to do in here these days. Maybe I'll climb up there and take a nap. Hey - this is different. This is a pretty good view from up here... zzzZZZzzz, zzzZZZzzz,..."
>>
>>Now, that may or may not be a good life - for a snake. But its hard for me to identify with that as being fulfilling. So when I get to take him out I like to let him roam the house (under my watchful eye, of course), but that's just not all that often. I mean, as far as I'm concerned just being in a box for a few hours would be bad - never mind living in there!
>>
>>So I wonder if there's something I can do to help keep him happy in his (forced) captivity. Dogs get play toys, so do cats, birds, ferrets, rats, mice, etc. Now, I understand that snakes don't exactly have a 'playful' nature - but they do have nature. What might he like? How about a fresh branch with some leaves on it every now and again - just to give him something new to smell and explore. Anything along those lines.
>>
>>My point, crazy as I must sound right now, is simply that I'd like to be sure that if I'm keeping an animal captive in my custody for my own enjoyment ( hence, "pet" ), then I'd like to help keep him from feeling like he is a prisoner.
>>
>>Ok - so, am I crazy?
>>
>>Thanks for reading
>>- Mark
>>.
>>
>>-----
>>.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My personal website: www.antegy.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My Kingsnake.com Picture Galleries
>>
>> - 1.0.0 Labyrinth Burmese Python Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Suriname Boa Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake Gallery
>> - 1.0.0 Pueblan Milksnake Gallery
>> - 0.1.0 Trinket Ratsnake Gallery
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on photo.net
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>My photography on modelmayhem.com
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>Me on myspace.com
-----
U.A.P.P.E.A.L.
Uniting A Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League
www.uappeal.org

As you move away from the sit-and-wait predators to the search and attack animals, (as well as the herbivores), environmental enrichment plays an even larger role. As already mentioned, we have to attempt not to look at this from a primate point of view.
Try thinking about it like this. A burmese in a naturalistic environment, flicks it's tongue, does a bit more surveying, but is still by at large, a sit and wait predator.
Now, a monitor lizard in a sterile environment may become a sit and wait predator, far from the search and destroy style of activity seen in healthy and active animals in the wild and in appropriate enclosures.

Ian

I think we attach too much thinking to how WE would act in a snake situation. Especially burmese. Burmese are, as mentioned above, watch and wait predators. Cold blooded predators tend to avoid using energy whenever they can, and will coil up in one spot for days waiting for prey to come along. They don't "need" exercise. In fact, the less movement the better, especially if they haven't eaten in 2-3 months during a dry season. Looking for water....sure, but once again, the less movement, the less need for water. Do they prefer to go traveling? Not most pythons. Sure, there are "hunter" species of snakes, but most food is obtained by accident, even to the point of eating carrion, which is much more common than you think, and they can easily smell that.

Most tongue flicking is just exactly what it sems like. Does it smell like food, water, or a mate? If not....no interest. Hot...want to cool off? Cold, time to warm up? Sometimes 2' in either direction in the wild solves that problem.

Do you want your cage to look "natural" for you and your pets? Knock your socks off...go right ahead, but it's probably more for your benefit than the snakes. It's not something the larger breeders can or will do. Many snakes live out their entire life in a tub, and breed and grow and thrive. I don't like tubs, myself, but if I had hundreds of animals, I'd probably use them.

BTW...there's a really neat book called Sandiegozu about a Burmese with neat "powers" that you all should read. Out of print, but it often shows up at ebay or Amazon. Takes place in the 30's. Good read, written by a biology teacher. I'd highly recommend it.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Not exactly the other way, just perhaps what I ment, said in a better tongue. We should rely on tongue flicking to be the only sign of enrichment, and perhaps variety isn't what a snake desires, yet, variety has proven beneficial in other areas (diet).

As for the tubs, well, no one is blaming the large breeders. Perhaps one day they'll be looked upon as herptile puppy mills, but no time soon. You did sort of bring up another point though, and that it is a human trait to attach breeding with mental health. Yes, a certain level is needed before breeding is successfull, but it isn't the highest bar to be set. Especially in such a willing species as the burm.

Another tangeant, "most" species do indeed need a certain level of excersise. Not the cardio we think of as excersise, but full body movement definately helps the digestion tract, and likely more. It is a fact, that snakes withstand an unusual amount of stillness, so much so that a mammal would atrophy and not have the muscle mechanics to give such a ferocious strike when need be.

Anyways, more thoughts to ponder I guess.

Ian

ps, a natural vivarium doesn't necessarily have to look natural. Pots aren't in nature, but the presence of plants definatly "feels" different, even without touching them. Hard to explain I guess.

for large monitors with dirst substrate you can burry some live earthworms, they will dig them up and eat them. i do it for my Blue tongue with superworms, she loves it. I am going to do it wfor my tegus as well when i get dirt for them.

I agree that encouraging the search of food will entice more natural behavior, in which we may assume is the monitor is at it's happiest. (For monitors that is, not the burms)