Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I´m from Spain and now I keep 1.1. russelli russelli, 1.2.ammodytes meridionalis,1.1.gab. rhinoceros, 2 agkistrodon contortrix, 1 c. vegrandis, 1 mitchelli stephensi, 0.1 albino atrox, 1.0 normal atrox, 1 t. wagleri.

I have a question about feeding my venomous snakes. Somes of them eat dead preys (as russelli russelli and atrox). My friend said me that it´s no good by two reasons: first, because frozen preys are favorable to proliferation of bacteriums, and, on the other hand, because the venom is very important to the digestion of the prey (mainly in hemotoxix snakes). what do you think? is good or bad? what´s the best?

First, it sounds like you have a nice collection (always nice to see folks in other countries keeping North American species that most of us from N.A. take for granted).

Second, you are getting some bad advice. There is actually a greater risk of parasite transmission from feeding live prey than dead. Freezing will kill parasites; not all, but many. If you are purchasing frozen rodents from a reputable source, that is always the way to go.

Feeding dead prey is MUCH safer than live. I have seen mice and rats kill some of the deadliest snakes on earth in a captive setting; for whatever reason, some captive venomous snakes simply will refuse to defend themselves and will allow a rat to literally attack and kill them. Dead prey is 100% safe...they can't bite!

The reasoning that a venomous snake must inject venom into live prey is a bunch of crap (and I don't know how to say "crap" in your native tongue but you get the message). We have a lot of documentation that shows that snakes have lived very long lives in captivity on a 100% dead rodent diet. My wildlife center only feeds frozen/thawed prey to our reptiles including venomous species. I will say, however, that when we feed our venomous snakes a frozen thawed rodent, via LONG hemostats or tongs, that most of the time we usually get a strike from the snake who does inject venom into the already dead animal. Although I am not a proponent of keeping "venomoids" (where you remove the venom glands from a venomous reptile), there are many of these animals who have lived very long lives in captivity w/out ever injecting any venom into its prey.

I don't mean to bash your friend or whoever gave you this information, but this advice you received goes against what I have observed and what I have accomplished in working with venomous reptiles for the past 20 years.

Hope this helps.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL
www.cityoflakeforest.com (go to Parks/Recreation and then to the WDC)

>>Hello, I´m from Spain and now I keep 1.1. russelli russelli, 1.2.ammodytes meridionalis,1.1.gab. rhinoceros, 2 agkistrodon contortrix, 1 c. vegrandis, 1 mitchelli stephensi, 0.1 albino atrox, 1.0 normal atrox, 1 t. wagleri.
>>
>>I have a question about feeding my venomous snakes. Somes of them eat dead preys (as russelli russelli and atrox). My friend said me that it´s no good by two reasons: first, because frozen preys are favorable to proliferation of bacteriums, and, on the other hand, because the venom is very important to the digestion of the prey (mainly in hemotoxix snakes). what do you think? is good or bad? what´s the best?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hello, Carmichael, thank for your speedy reply. In fact, I thought like you, but I think the best always is to ask someone who knows more. In Spain, it´s very difficult to get venomous species and the information is not available except for Internet. I am amateur and here there is few amateurs,but the experience is slight. My mail padrecarras@hotmail.com, if you use msn and want to chat with me. Best regards.

Is there a possibility that digestion speeded up by venom has an advantage in the wild that does not exist in captivity? What I mean is, the vulnerability of the animal while digesting a meal is not a factor in a cage.

Absolutely, there is no doubt about it. Many rattlesnakes have short activity seasons, due to a temperate climate, so they need to consume as much as they can in a short amount of time. The faster they can digest prey, the more prey they can eat. In captivity, we still typically elicit a strike response from our captive rattlesnakes which is probably why they defecate so regularly (although other factors are involved too). Good question.

>>Is there a possibility that digestion speeded up by venom has an advantage in the wild that does not exist in captivity? What I mean is, the vulnerability of the animal while digesting a meal is not a factor in a cage.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

We have a copperhead that has been in captivity for 21 years (22 this coming August). He was pretty much full grown when caught making him about 3-5 years old at the time so he's probably around 25 years old now.

It took a couple years to get him fully onto F/T food, but once he switched he refused to go back to live (he's a lazy bum). All these years on F/T and he's doing fine without any need to envenomate his dead food. As others have said.. venomous snakes are not required to use their venom to 'digest' their food. It's mostly used for incapacitating their prey and there is no need to incapacitate a mouse that is already dead (unless you are using hemostats to dangle the mouse and make the snake think the mouse is alive and get it to strike).

Below... pics from a meal he had the other week. I was playing with a new camera phone when I took the pic.

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PHWyvern

After loosing a Southern Pacific rattlesnake to a live rat back in my highschool days (mid-70's) I have been feeding frozen ever since.

People say "It's natural for them to eat live"! But not in a cage! Both animals are fighting for their lives! In the wild, a snake approaches it's prey on it's own terms. These are your animals that you care about so why would you risk it? Not to mention the convenience and cost saved by using frozen. Frozen rodents cost me anywhere from half to a quarter of the cost of live.

Rob covered the points of parasites and the need for venom ingection (not). I tease feed most of my animals to elicit a strike anyway so they might feed more readily.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
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Conservation through Education

Outstanding job on keeping the animal over two decades! That is a kind of story that does not grab much attention ordinarily, but epitomizes the dedication and commitment that is inherent in responsible husbandry. The overwhelming focus of our hobby is seemingly on new acquisitions, breeding and future plans for more of both...all of which is good. But I sometimes worry that not enough attention is paid to ensureing long-term good homes for the animals that we all admire so.
What a fortunate Copperhead!

What Bill said

I agree with everything siad so far. I suspect it's possible that some species may digest their prey more completely or at least more quickly if they envenomat it while it is alive, but I've seen no evidence that the difference is significant.

The only reason I feed live is when we have picky snakes that will not take thawed. Occasionally, a snake that has been eating thawed for a long time will stop eating for no apparent reason. Usually, one or two live meals will get them going again and then you can go back to thawed.