Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Guys,

I had been planning to start a breeding project for a long time now and at the end I choose breeding a gaboon to a rhino. Well the season is almost over and I recently bought the snakes, however I have some hope. We will see what will happen this week.

Here is a couple pics for you.

Gica

np.

Same here!
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

I find it odd that the man behind "Designer Atrox" would question anyone for wanting to attempt a hybrid project, even when it involves animals that are known to intergrade fairly commonly in the wild - or at least commonly enough that such intergrades can be imported. I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest of hybrid debate, that was just a curiosity I wanted to address. Also, goodness knows there's enough demand for this specific hybrid that I doubt he'd have much trouble moving the litter if he so desired.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Its the mixing of the gene pool that bothers me. Both animals are great by themselves without mixing them. My animals are pure atrox but a mix of colors and patterns all originating from wild caught stock. I guess you could say the same for the gaboons and rhinos. But wouldn't they be intergrades and not hybrids?

I am not looking for an arguement but voicing my opinion.

Randall, feel free to jump in! LOL
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

As I'm not in favor of selective breeding for recessive traits in general. I am certainly against forming Hybrids within a genus. Here's the dictionary had to say:

"In biology, hybrid has three meanings. * The first meaning is either the offspring of two different species, or of two different genera. * The second meaning of "hybrid" is crosses between populations or cultivars ("cultivated varieties" of a single species. This second meaning is often used in plant breeding. ** Hybrids between species of the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. ** Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids. ..."

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Al
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A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

I got to go with AL on this one.
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Plus, I thought everyone knew that Tim Coles Designer Atrox, was just that, atrox. Pure atrox, nothing hybridized.

Also, Larry's comment deserves merit.

Randal

Of course Tim's animals are atrox. My assertion was not to point that out, but the overall picture of the keeping and manipulation of these animals *in captivity* (that's the big issue here). As Al illustrated, many of those opposed to hybrids are also opposed to morphs. Not all, but many.

I personally don't have an issue at all with morphs, nor with hybrids that don't involve highly endangered/rare species. Yes, the angolan x balls and diamond x jungles are irritating to me, but things like 'bateaters' (burm x retics), blood x balls, etc just have an interesting look, especially the bats, and I think it's a shame that anyone would hope to suppress someone's ability to create such a beautiful snake.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

This sounds more like a philosophical debate than a "biological" one. None of these animals will ever see the "light of day (wild)" and, yes, these Bitis have been known to naturally integrade (although the literature is a bit sketchy at best), and, some of these artificially hybridized animals do look pretty, however, I personally have a real problem with it. Nothing personal with the person owning this pair, but they are extremely average looking snakes; not the kind of specimens that you would want to get this sort of project off the ground where you selectively take the best traits of both and see what happens (once again, I think its wrong...each species in and of themselves possess beautiful qualities that don't need any tinkering with). My biggest fear with artificial integradation/hybridization is the potential for watering down the limited "pure" gene pools for each individual species. But, since we don't keep any sort of studbook, or, have any accreditation (like A.K.A.), its difficicult to judge those who want to do something "just because"; that's there prerogative I suppose...it just doesn't sit real well with me.

As an aside, questioning Tim's comments seemed a bit odd as one person said, he breeds pure atrox, plain and simple. That's a lot different than taking a gaboon and rhino and throwing them together and seeing what happens....much different scenario.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Of course Tim's animals are atrox. My assertion was not to point that out, but the overall picture of the keeping and manipulation of these animals *in captivity* (that's the big issue here). As Al illustrated, many of those opposed to hybrids are also opposed to morphs. Not all, but many.
>>
>>I personally don't have an issue at all with morphs, nor with hybrids that don't involve highly endangered/rare species. Yes, the angolan x balls and diamond x jungles are irritating to me, but things like 'bateaters' (burm x retics), blood x balls, etc just have an interesting look, especially the bats, and I think it's a shame that anyone would hope to suppress someone's ability to create such a beautiful snake.
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>>Chance Duncan
>>www.rivervalleyexotics.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I remain conflicted (as they say)on the general subject of genetic manipulation, be that selective breeding for extreme recessive morphs or any sort of hybred. How presumtious of us to undo what nature has done over thousands of years in a couple of generations. And isn't that same ability, to genetically manipulate plants and animals, at the very core of our "civilization"? I mean that's what we do.
Put in Chance's corner, I guess

I wasn't planning to voice my opinion in this discussion since there are so many different views on this subject, and I don't want to step on any toe's. However I would like to say that I'm glad it was pointed out that the two snakes being discussed here are in fact, very bland in color and pattern. And again, nothing personal against the owner of the snakes. I do think they are pretty snakes, but definitely far from being top quality animals. And many of the gaboons and rhinos that I see available do not look much better than those individuals posted above. However there are a few out there with very spectacular coloring/pattern/contrast, but these can be somewhat hard to find. If it were up to me I would like to see this person focus on trying to produce the 'best of the best' of a certain speices, be it gaboons, or rhino's, or whatever. I just do not like to see the mixing of different species in captivity.

I think if we can't appreciate the species in it's true form then we are missing the beauty that nature has provided for us after millions of years of evolution. And yes, these two species do interbreed in the wild but that is evolution in progress, who knows maybe this mixture will someday form another species altogether. This has been going on for millions of years.

And another point was that these hybrids will never be introduced back into the wild, therefore never having the chance to 'dilute' the natural gene pool. But who are we to toy with something that nature has been perfecting for century's? This isn't as much of a 'hot button' issue with me as the whole venomoid subject, since no individual snakes are being harmed or altered in any way other then genetics. So I will leave it at that.

I would just like to say that personally, I would much rather see more beautiful, high quality animals being produced in their true form, not as hybrids. Thanks for letting me share my opinion.

Mike
(retickeeper)

..plain and simple. We aren't proving anything from a conservation /biologic standpoint. We know these snakes interbreed naturally. We know there are genetic variants. So, people want to create that new snake that they can give the "RARE" label too in order to command a higher price, plain and simple!

Recall our conversation Randal, about the 'blackheaded' bushmasters, that were really hybrids. Its one of the few cases where a true species, Lachesis melanocephala, is more sought and vastly more valuable than a hybrid that looks like one. In fact, its one of the EXTREMELY FEW SNAKES that SHOULD command an outrageous price, due to it being naturally rare! Pardon me if I'm biased(LOL!).

MCH

Correct Matt.
As you may recall, WE knew that the unmentioned breeder was mating stenophrys with melanocephala AND offering them as pure Blackheads.
However, the people that bought them didn't know that and in our opinion, they were duped.

Blackheads are much more rarer than Central American Bushmasters, thus they command a higher price. Same as you mentioned about folks hybridizing snakes for coloration, etc.,to make boat loads of money on them. I think too many people are putting a value on morphs, etc., to pad their own wallets and in the mean time diluting the hobby with hybrids.

Did we not get into this hobby because of our fasination of snakes? (I know I did), Or did we get into this hobby to create new "varieties", color mutations, etc., JUST to make money?
If we did it to make money, then we lost sight of our original intentions for keeping,studying,and husbanding reptiles. And that is SAD.
That my two cents,you can cash it in or trash it.

Randal

As long as an hybrid is occuring in the wild, it doesn't bother me to produce the same hybrid in the captivity.

As mentioned above, gravid females who had these hybrids in their bellies were imported to this country and this proofs that it is common in the wild.

As for the keeping the gene pool clean, we will always have pure bred gaboons and rhinos in captivity and the hybrid is visibally different from the original animals so it won't contaminate the gene pool.

Gica

I don't have any ethical problems with producing hybrids as long as they are clearly represented as such but I have some problems with your arguments here.

>>As mentioned above, gravid females who had these hybrids in their bellies were imported to this country and this proofs that it is common in the wild.

Um, no. A couple of litters out of the thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of bitis imported does not make them common. And that's assuming that the breeding didn't take place in an overcrowded crate in a shack somewhere in Africa.

>>As for the keeping the gene pool clean, we will always have pure bred gaboons and rhinos in captivity and the hybrid is visibally different from the original animals so it won't contaminate the gene pool.

True of a 50/50 hybrid, but as an example people producing burm/rock hybrids are trying all different percentages and a 12.5% retic, 87.5% burn is tough to spot, and one unscrupulous breeder selling off his "excess" could put a lot of questionable snakes into circulation a few generations down the road...

I agree with Larry's statement of "and one unscrupulous breeder selling off his "excess" could put a lot of questionable snakes into circulation a few generations down the road...".

That's my thoughts and feelings behind it. Ok, so I am not keen on hybrids. But as long as these animals stay in the trade and are honestly represented thats the main thing.

Up until now, all of my atrox were from naturally occuring wild stock with no manipulation other than putting them together for breeding. This past season I did breed an albino to patternless which would be a stretch in the wild. But not really considering the original stock of these animals are separated by about 4 miles!

We are entitled to our opinions and as long as we can continue to have meaningful and learning discussions on hots I'm happy.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

On a personal note I don't like hybrids etc. But an interesting point on this would be venom composition! Would it be a simple case of a mixture of the two animals or would it mutate? Would that mutated venom be covered by the available antivenom, SAIMR?

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

A couple years ago I talked with another poster about hybrid venoms, he had a mojaveXdiamondback, and had been bitten. He said he definitely had symptoms of both species' venoms.As far as how well AV worked I don't know.

I have no problem with these hybrids because it does occur in the wild, in fact a reliable source has told me there is reason to believe they're so established in certain areas that there could be wild F4's or F5's. You're not taking two snakes from different continents and trying to cross them. The offspring from these two can grow up and lead perfectly healthy lives which is what's most important to me, that the crossing will not produce unnatural, unhealthy animals. In my opinion all of the inbreeding going on in this hobby is much more of a cause for concern.

Though I will add that I would have chosen better colored snakes than the ones pictured above. Even if it meant waiting until next season to find the right snakes to use.

That is true I agree that inbreeding is a much bigger problem. Just wanted to say though, thats an amazing gaboon! Any more full body pics?
Mike
(retickeeper)

She is my favorite

n/p

Beautiful gaboon.

Mine are not as pretty but they are both gonna shed soon and they look much better. The female has a lot of blue where it looks black now.

So they are not as bad as you think.