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I think we keep our Dry's too clean...
Because everytime I clean the cage they make a point of spreading their stuff within 15 minutes!! I think they're trying to tell us they like being pigs and want to live in slop!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas 
Too Clean?
Mmmmmmmmmm....(Scratches bald head)
In the wild these things **POOP** and move on.(We could learn a lot from them)
In captivity they **POOP** and move about 3 feet, 4 if they are lucky! Imagine hanging out 4 ft from your own poop? 
I *Totally* respect your theory but I have a theory of my own:
THE BIG GIANT CAGE THEORY (tm)
I believe that we keep them in cages that are TOO SMALL. I think that a minimum size cage for an adult Eastern Indigo should be 16 feet in length, with a width of at least 8 feet, and a height of 5 feet! And even BIGGER outdoor enclosure should be used for breeding pairs.
With a special subterranian ***pooping chamber***, pre scented with urates so that it will be used. And a false bottem so that it can be cleaned out easily.(Ewwww)
With cages this large we could just hose them out, into a drain. Thereby saving the use of hundreds of rolls of paper towel and lessening deforestation!!
see....I am thinking conservation...on a huge scale!!
But I still think, that no matter how much we cleaned them, they would just drop a load as s on as we are done..
ITS SHEER SPITE I TELL YOU!
Dont believe me? Clean your Drys cage and drop em' in and set the TIMER. If they dont poop in 30 minutes to an hour,Ill grow hair! :*)
Sincerely,
Fred Albury
Simply put two water bowels in the cage the one they deficate in is the potty!
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Great theory Fred!! Why do you think I gave that male back to you...one less cage to clean Seriously, though, you hit the nail on the head; most captive indigos are kept in cages that are far too small and I am guilty too. I believe that even a 6' cage is far too small for this species and I feel a bit guilty for that (and am planning on building a room sized environment for my couperi in the near future). Even a 16' cage seems tiny for an animal who can cover so much territory, and does, on a daily basis. That's why I am cutting back so drastically on my indigo group....just keeping a few and trying to give them the highest quality of life that I can. Hope the boy is doing well. Rob
>>Too Clean?
>>
>>Mmmmmmmmmm....(Scratches bald head)
>>
>>In the wild these things **POOP** and move on.(We could learn a lot from them)
>>
>>In captivity they **POOP** and move about 3 feet, 4 if they are lucky! Imagine hanging out 4 ft from your own poop?
>>
>>I *Totally* respect your theory but I have a theory of my own:
>>
>>THE BIG GIANT CAGE THEORY (tm)
>>
>>I believe that we keep them in cages that are TOO SMALL. I think that a minimum size cage for an adult Eastern Indigo should be 16 feet in length, with a width of at least 8 feet, and a height of 5 feet! And even BIGGER outdoor enclosure should be used for breeding pairs.
>>
>>With a special subterranian ***pooping chamber***, pre scented with urates so that it will be used. And a false bottem so that it can be cleaned out easily.(Ewwww)
>>
>>With cages this large we could just hose them out, into a drain. Thereby saving the use of hundreds of rolls of paper towel and lessening deforestation!!
>>
>>see....I am thinking conservation...on a huge scale!!
>>
>>But I still think, that no matter how much we cleaned them, they would just drop a load as s on as we are done..
>>
>>ITS SHEER SPITE I TELL YOU!
>>
>>Dont believe me? Clean your Drys cage and drop em' in and set the TIMER. If they dont poop in 30 minutes to an hour,Ill grow hair! :*)
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Fred Albury
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL
The thing that is missing in captive collections is variety. Cage size will NEVER be big enough so to compensate for that I give my captives variety by offering them an outside adventure by putting them in an outside enclosure. They are a whole new animal when I bring them back in once a week allows you to rotate healthy animals and a simple underground tube as I posted in an earlier thread allows them a cool spot of 85F even on a 100F day. I think that is the very least we can do for them. The chamber can be sterilized between snakes.
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You can play into the hands of the enemy. Many wildlife biologists, zoo people and certainly PETA people think we are abusing all of our herps by keeping them in seemingly small ennclosures. They believe that only accredited zoos and institutions with standardized cage sizes should be able to keep and breed animals. And some people believe that no wildlife should be in captivity and that they should exist only in their natural habitat (which often no longer exists). They have no concept of how talented and diverse groups like the herp community are and what positive impacts we can have on species survival. To them we are poachers, or at best people creating a market for poachers. And they see the prices of some of our animals and see our motivation as purely one of money. They just don't know. So to say that you should feel guilty for having Drys in less than roomsized cages is discouraging to new folks who may be the foundation for the next group of enthusiastic breeders, and it gives ammunition to those who want to keep all wild animal breeding out of the private sector. Drys can do well and be relatively "happy" in 6 foot cages with proper hides, drawer systems etc. And they can certainly survive and breed in much smaller enclosures. Yah, depending on your snake room and ability to control temperature and humidity, and husbandry etc, bigger is usually better. But not always. What is the best cage size for the individual animal, the propagation and survival of the species, and the keeper? I don't know, but probably not a rack system and probably not roomsized cages.
Ok so let us humanize an animal for the time being but here is a thought. An animal pacing to and frow wants out, yes or no. But I have seen beautifully lanscaped enclosures in a private zoo (Caldwell Zoo) in Texas where the animals are kept in small enclosures but during business hours are allowd to roam a beautifully lanscaped area and show no inclination to pace or look for exit it is their treat and they like it.
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By the way I agree with you.
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Being a wildlife biologist and former ” zoo people", I must say that I take a bit of offense regarding your generalized statement, as I do not subscribe to the idea of the captive keeping of reptiles among the private sector as a bad thing. Nor do any of my colleagues and this topic has been brought up on many occasions, mostly due to the negative statements a lot of folks within the private sector have made in regards to those working within the academic, research and zoological arenas.
There are many instances where private herpetoculturist have worked in harmony with field biologists and zoological entities, Dean Alessandrini and Gerald Germany are two examples of such.
Personally, I believe there needs to be more communication between the private and public entities, but few private herpetoculturist take the time to make contact with academic, research and zoological entities, as most believe such will refuse their offer of assistance. Perhaps they will at first, but persistence will go far for those willing to put forth the effort…
Best regards,
Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947
I had to re read his post I think he was looking at how we can be preceiven not condoning the view.
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Try again that was Preceived
I had to re read his post I think he was looking at how we can be preceived not condoning the view
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about zoo people or herp people or wildlife biologists as I too have been all three. But they often really don't understand each other, and sometimes its communication and sometimes its more deep seated philosophy. Some herpers may perhaps know more about a particular species and its habitatthan the local biologist.And that sometimes leads them to believe that the law doesn't apply to them. And that causes conflicts. If the biologist doesn't know the differences in scalation between indigos or can't tell an alterna from a thayeri, then he or she has no credibility as a biologist from the point of view of some herpers, even though they could identify 10 species of rare minnows, or 100 species of wildflowers, can track a poacher in the dark and write a publishable paper. The biologist has to worry about the whole ecosystem, law enforcment, revenue producing species, public relations etc. Communication is a key, but there is a big gap. And I am with Rob on liking big cages, particularly for pet animals. I'm planning a 10 foot cage for my indigo when he is an adult. But some people, including myself, are very sensitive about being made to feel guilty about how they keep their animals when they know in their heart they are doing a good job. I had a bad experience with some zoo folks with no herp background that publicly criticized me for keeping my subocularis(a crevice dwelling species to boot) in a rack system. Its a nice big rack and they love it. But they thought the square footage inadequate. I keep my 4.5 foot indigo (from Rob Carmichael-great animal) in a 3' by2'by2'cage connected by a big piece of PVC to another of the same dimensions, and he seems to love it -eats basks, never tries to get out. I have friends who kept and bred indigos in the '70's and '80's in 4 by 4 drawer cages who think I'm nuts for planning my big cages. They see it as a waste of square footage and loss of more space for more animals.Thats the way they think. and thats OK. I love Rob's philosophy of doing the best for the individual, but just don't think it is practical for those on the production side.. there has to be middle ground. I'll shut up now that I have offended everybody.
i too like to keep my biggest snakes in big, spacious cages. they display better that way but in reality it's more for me i guess than for them. but after awhile you run outta space & gotta start racking them. snakes that have been cb [esp. adults] don't really try to escape & usually resist being removed from their cage when the time comes. ever try to get an irritated bullsnake out of a blanket box? problem! they regard their cage as their den & feel safe & secure in there despite the fact that it isn't gigantic & really don't like being disturbed. so to me, it's not always a question of lottsa space but more what it takes to make you & your animals happy. usually that ends up being in the eye of the beholder & the 'beheld'. my .02...........
>>(and am planning on building a room sized environment for my couperi in the near future)...just keeping a few and trying to give them the highest quality of life that I can. Hope the boy is doing well. Rob
Rob,
When you get Toni to go along with that cage, give me a call - I've got a few ideas that shouldn't induce bankruptcy - I can also use my knowledge of S. Georgia to get just the right look too!
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Matt Campbell
Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977
How big of an enclosure do you recommend fro an adult Indigo Snake (Eastern), and what size enclosure do you use Dry Guy?
4' and 5'...More than that is just impractical for most of us..However much I'd love to give them 6',8' or 10' cages!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas
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