Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted the following on the nile monitor subforum hoping to start some conversation over there. Unfortunately, that idea has failed. Maybe there will be more response if it is posted in the main forum.

"Has anyone heard of anyone or any group that is attempting to selectively breed Nile monitors (or any monitor species)? The idea is that if you select monitors with more calm/tolerant personalities and breed them over many generations, you may eventually end up with calmer lizards. I know that this is a process that dogs, cats, cows, horses, and other animals have been going through for thousands of years. I've never heard of anyone attempting this process with a reptile. Though it would probably take several generations of breeders to achieve the final result, someone has to start somewhere. Anyways, just thought I'd try to get some conversation started on this sub-forum as it has been very dead lately."

"several generations"? perhaps hundreds or thousands. but certainly more than several.

the problem is that Niles are simply not very popular. there are lots of Niles sold, sure, but that is because they are one of the cheapest monitors available. if folks had to pay $200 for a Nile baby, a giant lizard with a poor attitude that makes for the worst captive monitor, you wouldn't sell very many at all.

pairing their lack of actual popularity with the market price, it doesn't make sense for a breeder to committ to one generation, much less hundreds.

as for any monitor species having the potential, and mental capacity, to be domesticated, i don't think that is realistic. you can put diapers and a leash on a monkey, and it still throws poop at you : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn I sure dont agree with your biased opinion on this amazing specie!
Nil's can be the most rewording varanid a keeper owns, providing they get past the adolesent stage, how many have you kept past this stage? most pepoles that give them bad press have never raised a nil to adulthood.

in my opinion they are exelent captive. They commend respect from ther owners, this to me is there best feature.
I just hate pepoles that force handling on an animal that wants none.

agreed nils are not the best specie for captivity, but this is because of size not temper, however in the large varanid category they are just as good as any salvator or BT and surly much better then crocs.
rgds

Hi Steeve, long time on see. I have missed you on here. How are you doing?

I agree with both of you, hahahahahaha yea thats right, FR taking the middle road. Niles indeed can be great monitors. But they are not beginers monitors or even for keepers with "moderate" experience. You have to know what your doing or, get lucky. I like to ask, are they feeling lucky?

Its also true, they are not being bred in captivity, and for many reasons. Amoungst those reasons is what Robyn mentioned. The imports prevent this. So People are stuck with wild niles, either taken from the wild or their mothers were taken from the wild. Either way, they are not givin the best of care. The reason is, they do not demand enough money to get the best of care. You and I know that rare(expensive) wild caught monitors recieve far better care. Thats only common sense.

So in some sense, its not even about the monitors or their attitides. Its more about us humans and our odd paradigns. They're cheap so we give no care. They're expensive so we give them lots of care. They are cheap, so we beginers buy a psyho-wild caught tortured monitor to begin our varanid experience. Its expensive(captive hatched) So we would rather have a wild nile, water or sav. As you truely understand, us humans are an odd lot.

I guess those fellas that had the white nile and albino niles pretty much dropped the ball. Those may have turned it around for niles. Cheers

Hey I missed you too!
Was in PNG for awhile trying to get a better understanding on wild varanids and there needs, I am doing fine and never been more motivated on the subject.
As usual your reply is information packed and veridict, it sure is a shame aboute thos white and albino nils going to wast because of greed, I sure whould have liked the chance to work with them, but the price is just rediculous.

Talk later have much to catch up with
Rgds

I have read about these albino and leucistic niles. I am suprised no one out there is trying to breed them, though I did observe the price that they are listed for sale for. It is outrageous. Thats too bad, captive bred white nile monitors would be cool if they could be purchased for a reasonable price.

Frank captures the points pretty well, it really does boil down to shortcomings of keepers more than the actual monitor.

i don't fault the Nile for being what it is, but really, a keeper like Steeve is not a "typical" keeper, he is a significant exception. in 99% of Nile cases, the actual real, "i keep Niles" cases, they are in a poor situation, and all things considered, make poor captives in those situations.

the original premise was to be able to take those situations and domesticate the Nile, which is not going to be possible no matter the way you approach it : )

as hard as we all work to promote positive and healthy husbandry for monitors and lizards, the tough reality might very well be that for most keepers, the BEST choice is either a picture of a lizard, or perhaps a plastic lizard. or perhaps that is the best choice for the live lizards themselves : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Regarding evolutionary studies of domesticated animals, almost every domesticated species "chose" to be domesticated -this happens over a relatively long period of hundreds of years. Some strand of the species "chooses" to live near humans, then opts to increase its contact with us and evolves in specialization of this behavior. The process of selective breeding is little more than a "final tooling" on our part. 90% of domestication is out of our control.

Robyn
Let me take this opportunity to congratulate you on your ornate uromastyx success, and thanks for the help and useful information, this helped me with my group.

Also I herd you are one of the few peoples stuck with the bolean python dilemma; I sold my pair few years ago however. Hers something of interest that may or may not help. In The only successful captive reproduction of bolean's I know of, the male showed a red belly just prior copulation. I was able to obtain this condition with my mollucan male with temperature manipulation similar to that of my friend with his boleans.
Best of luck

the Ornates have been a good, interesting project, we continue to push ahead : )

as for the Boelen's, i am pretty sure that temp manipulation plays a big part, and i think the hang up is on the male side of the equation, we continue to push ahead on that one too : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

the red only shows after 3 weeks NTL 65f and last 5-7days then normal coloration is back. I think fertility is most potant in this red phase?!? I will only know when my female is adult.

The issue which I have seen, in talking with several people working with M. boeleni, is that they all utilize the typical "snake breeder" type setup. Usually vision cages, limited space, limited resources, limited environmental conditions, etc.. These are big snakes, which would use every inch of space(vertical space too) that you give them(but yet we restrict them to tiny cages??).

While it seems that many python and other snake species can be bred in great numbers under the 'minimalist' approach; that being tiny cages, little variability, etc.. , (such as ball pythons, retics, boas, etc..); perhaps M. boeleni is not as tolerant to neglectful/incomplete husbandry as many of these other species...

Space is always big concern when keeping herps, and can get expensive. I am surprised to see that nobody has experimented with offering HUGE spaces to accomodate these animals- I'm talking about room sized enclosures which offer an enormous amount of hiding areas, areas of varying humidity/dampness levels, various different basking spots, temperature gradients, and usable surface area...Much like many of us approach monitor-keeping.

I think that going back towards using the variables and conditions that they have evolved to use in nature would be a good approach to take, as this minimalistic, unnatural approach has apparently gotten nobody anywhere... 20oz water bowl, newspaper substrate, a single basking spot, a single hide 'box', 18" of vertical height, 18sq feet of usable surface area...

I think that these snakes not only deserve more, but I also feel that perhaps if somebody keeping these animals were to step outside the common approach and train of thought regarding python breeding(vision cages, newspaper, etc.), and offer some variation to their environment, maybe people would start seeing success with this species... Why stray further and further away from nature?? I guess that's what I'm getting at....
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Treemonitors.com

This seems to be how Stan Chiras works with his boleans, and much like I want to do with my mollucans. However the pair of boleans I am talking about have been kept in 54 gallon fish tanks for 2 years prior breeding, and on news paper. This clearly shows that cage size is not an issue.
I think Robyn has it figured out ok.

without having hatching success, it is hard to just randomly boast about setups in detail, but in fact we are doing those things : )

we use Visions, but we use a "bank" of cages, consisting of interconnected 6 footers and 4.5 footers. they combine for over 112 square feet of floor space. there are multiple basking zones, hotter zones, cooler zones, lighted zones, dark and blacked out zones. drier zones, humid zones, etc.

i think cooling temps play an important role, so the temp gradient is quite wide, from 55F (during this winter cycle) to 120 F under the hottest lights. it is all based around our monitor husbandry and theory, applying choices to the setup.

at this point, we get terrific female follicular development and progress. the hang up seems to be on the male side, each year we get giant follicles (seen through ultrasound), courting, cops, and then nothing. so we make changes each new season, trying to find the missing piece of the puzzle that will put us over the top, and sitting on some fertile eggs : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

55f I never went this low! I don’t think its necessary to go lower then 65f. However I noticed RPS when DTH temps are not provided (in my case 120f) been told by many this is to hot but the snakes says otherwise.
I will follow your progress with interest!
Rgds

I have owned 3 nile monitors in my life. 2 were Ornates and one was V.n. niloticus and all three were raised successfully and totally tame. My second ornate was so tame he used to climb into bed and push his body under my pillow. I spent alot of time with my niles as its required. I now have a Water monitor. V. salvatorii and he is nowhere as tame as my Niles. He is a yearling and loves to bite until he is held. I also have to say that I havent been holding him as much because I work so much,but now I make it a priority to give him at least 20 minutes a day of holding. Water monitors are so much harder to keep alive as babies b/c most of them are wild caught out of Indonesia. I had to go to a feedstore and buy safeguard and put a little bit in him to kill off parasites. My niles were never as skittish as my water monitor is...LOL..he actually lunges at me. My niles never ever lunged at me. But as he grows and gets bigger and more handling, my water will stop. Just alot of time working with him and of course when h e gets out of his baby stage he should calm down even more

Hi Steeve!
It's nice to see you back

been keeping nils from Tanzania,Togo,Egypt,Burundi and Mozambique for some years now, they all became tolerant of me in time. nils are very defensive by nature, they are not an agresive specie but a defensive one. a reflection of there enviernement.

Of course you could breed for behavior as well as color and pattern. That is not out of the question. What is out of the question is the cost to do such a thing.

There is no financial support or market to allow this. Simply put, the retail price, muchless the wholesale price of niles is below the cost of captive producing them. So their captive future is entirely in the hands of hobbyist(work for free or at a loss). For the time being. Cheers