Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We occasionally have these discussions about temperatures and digestion, and my California Kingsnake may be providing another data point. Temperatures in his 55 long aquarium 48x13x16 generally run about 88 to 92 °F on the warm side, 78 to 82 °F in the middle, and 68 to 72 °F on the cool side. I don't have much bedding on the warm side or the middle. The manufacturer of my UTH heat mats recommends against deep bedding claiming that deep bedding won't allow heat to come through the bedding to the snake's living space. Because I'm not worried about heat coming through the bedding on the cool side, I've put about two inches of mostly cypress mulch with a little Repti-Bark on the cool side. The cool side water dish sits on top of this bedding, and two half-log hides are over the bedding as well.

I've noticed over the past few weeks that sometimes my snake burrows into this deep bedding. He's at least partially under the water dish sometimes and usually at least partially under where the half-logs are. (If he ever escapes, he'll get a two or three day head start because I'm used to him hiding and would just assume that he's under the bedding.) The temperature just under the surface of the bedding has been running about 68°F, but in recent cool snaps has dropped to about 66°F.

I've always assumed that after he eats, he needs warm temperatures for a few days to digest his food. His favorite hide is about 80 to 84 °F most of the time, and he usually retreats to this hide after he eats.

Two nights ago, I fed him an adult mouse and a fuzzy (both f/t) weighing a total of about 30 grams or maybe a touch more. He took the mice easily enough, did a couple of laps around his cage, and then burrowed into the bedding. I haven't seen him since then.

I'm a little perplexed that he would eat and then go somewhere that is 10 to 15 degrees cooler than he usually goes for digestion. I'm not trying to hibernate him and haven't changed temperatures in his cage over the winter. I've only had him since October, and he's my first. I don't have any past behavior as a basis for comparison.

At this point, I'm not worried about him, but I'm curious whether others have thoughts about what I'm seeing. Should I be worried? Will he digest this meal at the lower temperatures?

Thanks,

Bill

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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Just a comment -
I think its great that you are keeping this snake in a larger cage with a wide temperature range (wide compared to a sweaterbox rack for example) because you might witness behaviors or thermoregulation patterns not normally seen in smaller setups.

I've noticed when playing around with different cage setups for kings/milks that when offered a wide temp range and some room, the snakes would make use of cool areas for extended periods at times. Of course I'm not home all day to see what they did hour by hour.

I didn't even look at your picture the first time I posted. I must agree with FR, you need to change that setup. If you were to provide a burrow-able substrate (not bark) and a piece of 1-1/2" dia PVC in it, you would be shocked how little you would see the snake (as long as snake-friendly temps and moisture are provided.)

My wife complained to me why I've had an empty tank in the garage with just substrate. She had no idea a Cal king had been living in there for close to a year. That snake stayed hidden so much. It had a real thick layer of Eco-Earth and was heated from above, so that the snake went below to stay cool, and came to the surface (barely breaking the surface) to get warm. Not exactly like nature but still fun to see.

Thanks for the comments.

I'll have to look for Eco-Earth. While I use some bark and will continue to do so in some areas because I like the look and like to see what my snake does with variety, most of the burrowing places are cypress mulch. I bought cypress mulch specifically because a young lady from the pet store told me that kingsnakes like cypress mulch for burrowing. Is the Eco-Earth better for this purpose? Have you ever tried putting different substrates in the same cage?

As I mentioned in another post, I'm already plotting the next arrangement of my enclosure. I may try putting in "hills" of different substrates to see which he likes best.

I've only been a snake owner for three months, and I've tended towards being "conventional" for the time being. To be honest, I've awoken most days of these three months wondering whether I'd find my snakes dead from something that I did wrong that most caresheets and guidebooks never think to mention could be wrong. As I gain experience, I'll gain confidence to experiment.

The strange thing is that his current burrowing area was an afterthought. As I was preparing to leave for eight or nine days over Christmas, I tried to think of something that could give him a little better chance of surviving if something went wrong while I was gone. I had part of a bag of the cypress mulch sitting near the cage and just dumped the whole thing in the cool end of his cage thinking that if something strange happened maybe he could burrow in the mulch to survive.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I've noticed the same thing with my California King. I fed "Nigel" last night and he is at the cool end of his hide box this morning. This is his normal resting place during the day unless he feels like he wants some more heat. In this case he either crowds to the warmer side of his hide box, or hides underneath the substrate closer to the under tank heater. I thought this was a little wierd, but I took all my snakes to the vet for a check up recently and they were all a picture of health. I think he just likes the cooler temperature most of the time. You have a beautiful set up and a really gorgeous animal. Have fun!

Thanks for looking and complimenting my setup.

How cool is the cool end of Nigel's hide box and how warm is the warm end?

What substrate do you use that he can hide under?

It's nice when the vet says that they are fine. I took mine earlier in the year, and the vet said that he is fine.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

i agree with the guy who said what you have here is much better,if not ideal,housing than the cramped,warehouse style rack system.i too try to give my snakes plenty of room-it encourages excercise-helping prevent,or at least contributing less to,obesity(and yes some might also say it prevents boredom),gives them more options for thermoregulation,etc....that looks like a well-set up enclosure...hey like you said yourself,he's got a more than wide enough temp. gradient-if he was trying to go into a natural/self-inuced brumation,he would have gone off-feed...so i say just let him go where he wants...if he needs more warmth he'll go to it in his enclosure.

Thanks for the comments.

I'm fairly happy with this enclosure, but I like what FR suggested. As I type, I'm strategizing about changes that I'll make. Once I'm confident that more substrate won't create any temperature control dangers, I'll do some building in there. I have a thermostat on order, and I had planned to update the enclosure when the thermostat arrived. I now have more ideas for the update.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

As a long long time kingsnake fella. One who has done extensive work both in the field and in captivity. I look at your setup and think, how odd. Hence the boat comment, as in, your setup is missing the boat(nice as your cage looks). Sure, your offerring caresheet data. But what dos that have to do with the kingsnake?

As I look at your setup, I wonder, just what do you think kingsnakes are and do?

Because your considering the choices your kingsnake is making, you must think that your kingsnake has perferences and understanding(perferred conditions). It must know what it wants, so it can pick it. Is that true?

The way I see it. Your problem is, you don't understand the kingsnake. Its kinda like this. If your were a fish, a really smart fish, what would you think of people? ALso, how would you keep people? you know, in your people cage(your a human collector). You most likely would keep the human similarly to how you keep your kingsnake. That is, most people find kingsnakes crawling on the ground. So thats what they/you gave it, above ground. That fish always finds humans underwater or swimming in the water. So that fish most likely would keep humans in water. If that fish was really smart, it would give it a floaty to sit on. The reason is, without one, the humans quickly died.

Well the reality is, kingsnake do not live on the surface, they live underground. Yet the majority of your cage is above ground. So how do you expect that kingsnake to accurately relate to that cage when its not providing the elements that it understands? Is anyone getting the picture? As humans do not live on or in water. I am sure the humans would make decisions, what what would they be? find a way to get out of the water?

Try filling that cage 1/2 to 3/4 full of some nice substrate and placing tubes and hides all thru the substrate and on top the substrate. Keep your temps like they are. Now see what decisions the snake makes. How often does it come to the surface? How often and why does it move from place to place underground? How often does it drink now that it back living undeground like it suppose to. Remember, they do not like wet or dry substrate.

You should understand, there is a far higher percentage of humans underwater, then kingsnakes above ground. Think of your snake as a reptilian mole. And I sure hope that fish does not catch you and keep you in a tank of water. Cheers

Otherwise we'd do like the fish and drown all our snakes. . .

But anywho. . . very good points made, Ef-are!

BTW: Show me a fish that can think and I'll show you a human that can talk to a kingsnake!

Peace. . . (til fish rule the world),

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Thanks for the comments. You've given me some interesting thoughts. The big question that comes to my mind is whether there's any danger of the deeper substrate trapping too much heat above my UTH heat mats? Is there any danger of creating an area where the substrate was well over 100°F? I've ordered a thermostat and will be setting it up when it arrives. Where should I put the probe and to what temperature should I control? I've heard that snakes in captivity don't know to avoid areas that are too hot. I don't believe everything I hear, but I try to take warnings seriously when they involve the safety of my pets.

Mark mentioned the need for a substrate that allowed burrowing and said that I should avoid bark. The shallowly built up area where this guy burrows is cypress mulch. Is that a good substrate for what you're suggesting? If not, what's better?

How do you monitor your snakes' movement when they move from place to place under their substrate? If I offer my guy that much substrate, I'll not likely know where he is most of the time. That problem won't stop me from giving him more burrowing space, but I'm interested in knowing how you've implemented that suggestion in your setups.

For now, my last question will be how do I measure that I don't have "wet or dry substrate" and how do I adjust the moisture level? I'm using the usual spray bottle now to wet everything once a day. Humidity in this cage stays in the 40 to 60 percent range.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Change to a heat bulb and stop using the UTh and you can fill the substrate as high as you want. If you are going naturalistic then what would UTH have to do with it. Also do you currently have a hot end hide that the snake can burrow in?????

Later Jason

Thanks for the comments.

I don't have any really good hot end hides. I have a tile hide on the hot end with bark and moss underneath and moss covering the front. I'm not sure what the temperature in this hide is. I hadn't provided him with much burrowing space on the hot end because the makers of the UTH recommended against having more than half an inch of substrate over the heater.

His favorite hide for the three months that I've owned him has been the blue water dish in the center of the enclosure. He stays under that dish about 80% of the time. The temperature under the dish is in the 81 to 85 °F range. Normally, he goes there immediately after eating, and his departure from this habit is what prompted the thread.

I'll give some thought to unplugging the UTH and using bulbs entirely. My light bar setup isn't ideal for bulb use, but I could probably adjust.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Have to agree with Jason. I have used light bulbs in the past on several kingsnakes and all it did was make them eat more!!! I would have the low-watt (25-40 depending on cage size) light bulb (outside of the cage) on one end of the cage, while the sides & top had plenty of ventilation. My snakes did just fine like that. I'm considering going back to something like that in the near future, since it had worked so well for me. And as far as I have observed most snakes ARE smart enough to move around/away from uncomfortable situations ie: too hot, too cold, too dry, too itchy (mites), cage too small . . . Of course if the cage is too small then eventually they will give up moving around because they realize that they're trapped and/or exhausted. . .

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Thanks for the comments. Your thoughts about snakes knowing to avoid "too" situations are encouraging. If my snake will do what's best for him in most situations, then I can keep him healthy by giving him enough room and options to avoid any mistakes that I make. I'd love for my snake to eat more. He seems a little thin compared to the ones that I see pictured on this forum.

As long as we're talking sizes, how small is too small for a California Kingsnake? Would you consider 48x13x16 to be too small for him. (He's about 42 inches long.) Will I need to get something bigger when he grows? If so, what length will trigger the need for a bigger cage?

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

That cage you mentioned will be good enough for him even if he gets a little bigger. He won't get too much bigger anyway. Most Cal kings usually top around 48"-54" Keep it well ventilated and he won't have any problems thermo-regulating from the warmer to the cooler side of the cage. For that cage you can use a 40 watt bulb as long as the cage is well ventilated and your room temp doesn't exceed 78 degrees.

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

You only need 2 or 3 inches of substrate for your snake to hide in and a few hide boxes,caves,etc as sometimes they pefer that.
No need to add thick substrate and complicate things a few inches will be plenty add some thick branches to and thats all you need and a great set up.
Aspen shavings are great they absorb waste and allow easy hiding. They also allow for heat from the UTH .
To thick a substrate might be a snake you rarely see and wont tolerate being handled as its used to just hiding and not being handled . No need for extremes go a happy medium.

Thanks for the comments. I like to handle this guy a couple of times a week. It will be interesting to see whether letting him bury himself in more substrate would make him less sociable. Did you have this experience? So far, he's been under the mulch a bit more than usual in the past couple of weeks. I'll probably handle him tonight or tomorrow. If I have to dig him out to see him, it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to me.

I've used aspen shavings in a few places in my cages, but I've never used much of it. I've heard that it's susceptible to mold. Has that ever been a problem for you? I'd enjoy putting a little more aspen in the cage at some time, but I'll probably continue to use multiple substrates for some time. I think it's interesting to see which substrate the snake will use.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

No aspen was never a problem for me. I would think to deep you get mold ,humid areas thats why I like 2 inches more or less but since your snake is big guess 3 inches tops.
You can mix aspen with cyprus mulch or ofcourse use any one by itself.
Whatever you use try 2 to 3 inches first before you go deeper. I think you will prefer that. Your snake will like having something to bury in but no reason to go to deep.
I dont agree with the post above that Ca kings are underground. Sure they do but lots have been found under wood,under debris. In other words under stuff not underground like Mole kings are.
Your tank is a great a 55 gallon a few thick branches extending up would look great and he would use them.

Lia

in stride.

Heat mats/pads/tape, work by increasing the ambient heat. So if you insulate them, they can cause lots of heat and fire. So put them on a reostat,(dimmer switch, fan controller, etc)(home depot and the like) That is why the manifacturer does not recomend lots of substrate, it acts as an insulation blanket.

Snakes like to make choices. When your snake is hungry, it will lay in ambush, then if no food is found come out and crawl around. Also, it will find a simple routine. Such as going to the same places. Like one place after feeding, another when its not feeding, another when in shed. Etc. So finding the snake is not a problem. For me, its fun to see a snake doing stuff in the way it was designed to. Or at least close to that. It will make permanet burrows and semi permanet burrows. Its also very interesting to watch them dig and use their neck as a scooper.

I like that coco stuff and sand, as a good substrate. I have also sifted out spaghnum moss and mixed in sand too. Also leaf litter and soil is good. There are lots of ways to do this. The problem with Cypress mulch is, its manifactured, its put thru a shredder and that leaves lots of splinters.

Also, your cage looked very nice. Even with deep substrate, you can have the same look above ground, just a little shorter.

Have fun, have fun, and have fun, cheers

Before I had snakes, I enjoyed knowing a little about them, and I enjoyed handling them. I bought snakes because I thought the handling aspect would be fun. One of the things that I've discovered is that I also enjoy the "snake psychology" aspect of just having them where I can watch them. Your analogies are good for illustrating new ways to consider the "snake psychology" aspects of this hobby.

I've owned snakes for less than four months, so I'm still in a steep learning curve and not particularly confident. Being in this place makes me more conservative and conventional, but I've enjoyed your advocacy of experimenting and learning. As I feel better about knowing what I can try without endangering my snake, I'll do more of experimenting and learning.

I've seen the coconut bedding and wondered whether it would be good for a snake. If you've had success, then I know that it should be safe to try. I'll look for a bag when I'm out next.

Interesting stuff, thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

splinters??as a risk to who,the snake?the cleaner of the snake's cage? i've never got splinters,nor have my snakes,nor have i ever heard of such happenings from using aspen shavings...when you get into all those 'natural' substrates-sand,soil,and especially leaf litter-you are making it a lot easier to introduce parasites if it's not done right as is often the case,or at the very least,making it harder to clean the enclosure....several inches worth of said substrate?wow,have fun maintaining a clean enclosure with that.way more work,and some here may have a lot more experience-priceless-or perhaps just a lot more free time(also very valuable)to properly care for such elaborate set-ups...you may want to think twice before completely abandoning what is working fine for you just because of some others' well-intentioned brainstorm(s) on a herp forum-of course all this is up to you....i think there are easier ways to achieve more or less the same results-stuff that is much easier to keep clean and safer to put in his enclosure;really any flat and/or hollow objects that increase the surface area for the snake to play/explore/hide in and under,etc.....even a deli cup with frequently moistened sphagnum moss(pre-sterilized,nursery-bought)....this,and other hides,can be matched on both ends (warm/cool) of the cage,to allow you to observe his choices made....'if it ain't broke,don't fix it'...but if you are determined to try a new setup,i would not go too crazy all at once,and you have my suggestions.good luck!

One of the reasons that I stopped at two snakes is that having only two allows me to go a little crazy on each of them. I see plenty of snakes that I'd like to have. If I built a more traditional rack system, I could find the room for them. I make enough money that I could feed more snakes. The problem is that I wouldn't have time to deal with each of them individually. I appreciate your word of caution about creating something that will be very difficult to maintain.

As I plot my next moves, I'm keeping the maintenance issue very much in mind. At the same time, digging most of the substrate from a cage doesn't seem as if it would be that tedious. The tedious part is getting the last quarter inch that I have to chase around the bottom. The other tedious part is sterilizing all of the "furniture" that I put in the cage.

I'm not sure where FR gets his sand, but I have a some sand that I bought with my kingsnake. The pet store where I bought him was keeping him on a sand substrate. As I visited them, I became more certain that they were doing many things the wrong way, and my reading on these boards confirmed that impression. However, when I bought the snake and some caging stuff, I bought the sand because so far it had worked for them. I could put at least one sand hill in his cage without causing myself too much trouble, and he could use it or not as he wished.

As you said, there's a danger is going too far from what I know works. I don't see myself changing what I'm doing completely, but I may exaggerate some of what I've done. I'll have cypress mulch in the next version of this cage until I find something that my snake and I like better. However, I'll have fun looking for other options such as the coconut stuff. I'll continue to use the ZooMed spaghnum moss. I certainly won't use stuff that I find in my yard, and I might start baking even the cypress mulch that's sold as reptile bedding.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

Hi Bill,

I don't normally post much here on this forum, aside from pics of my king that I like to share once in a while - but, it just so happens that I have a similar event happening with one of my other snakes.

I just fed him (my burm) last night and to my surprise he is resting over on the cool end of his cage (which I monitor at both ends to maintain a proper thermal gradient). My only guess so far is that it may have to do with the fact that last night's meal was a bit on the smaller side than usual - so maybe its easy to digest and doesn't require him to warm up much. Was the meal you gave yours normal sized, or perhaps also a bit on the small side.

Also, the other thing I like from your post is your signature - I absolutely, whole-heartedly, positively agree.

- Mark
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Thanks for the comment about my signature. I'm really trying to make it happen.

Your thought the meal size sounds good, but I gave my snake a normal meal. I typically give him one adult mouse (f/t) and most of the time now add one mouse fuzzy (also f/t). The total weight of the meal is about 30 to 35 grams when I give him both. The adult mouse is usually 20 to 25 grams alone. (My snake is 42 inches long and weighs about 340 grams.) This meal shouldn't be anything unusual for him. He's also on a regular schedule of eating once a week, and this meal followed that schedule.

Thanks,

Bill

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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

It sounds like you are not afraid to try new things and will be experimenting on a regular basis to acheive your goal of healthy pets. Nice work. Sometimes they just like the cool side. I will be increasing the substrate level in some of my enclosures and going with baked soil and leaf litter in some. Although my collection is of medium size,(to me), 30 snakes, I want to set up some naturalistic enclosures and keep some rack systems in place. I use aspen in the sweater racks and cypress mulch in the terrariums. My neos burrow and my adults use their hides mostly.
Hey Frank, in the burrow method, do they come to the surface to deficate or go underground? or both? I would guess both, or do they build a bathroom, seriously?
Todd Hughes

The bathroom issue has been on my mind a bit as well. Within the last week, I've twice encountered spots where my kingsnake defecated around the leaves of his vine without my noticing quickly. I occasionally think that I detect an odor, but my nose is horrible. I look, but I don't find anything. Only later do I get the right angle to see the feces (and clean it).

Another issue for me will be feeding. If I'm feeding (f/t), do I need to dig him out in order to feed or can I just leave the mice somewhere and wait for him to come looking? The one time that he was hiding when I fed him, I left the mice on sides of his water dish. When I returned in an hour, he was just finishing his meal.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

keep an open mind while researching what you feel is best for you and the snake, stay enthused about your new hobby and most of all, enjoy that beautiful snake you have pictured in that nice big enclosure. It really looks terrific and I do believe you're providing the best situation for your snake, and for you since that's real important also. I like the aspen for ease of borrowing, cleaning, looks nice and like you a like a more natural setting to enjoy looking at for me and others. For several years I kept my Cal King in a 40 gal. breeder tank with the UTH w/thermo regulator, and repti-carpet over the bottom glass between the aspen substrate to minimize any risk of him getting burned. With just a snake or two as pets, or even three or four as I had over the past several years, it's nice to be able to spoil them or at least feel like you're giving them the best set-up possible. Good luck. Jim

Thanks for the comments and for the picture. I was sorry to hear that your pet passed away. He was beautiful, and your setup looks great as well. More than anything else, this thread is showing me that I need to create some more vertical features for my kingsnake but make them burrowing/crawling features rather than climbing features. You've done that with the big rock and big log piece. I'll need to do something similar.

Thanks,

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

After two or three days of being hidden in the substrate, my kingsnake poked his head through the ground and is looking out from under his half-log, corner hide.
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.