Reptile & Amphibian Forums

O.K. after seeing a classified ad once again for black splendida I can't help but wonder what the consensus is these days among hobbyists here. (If there are any phd out there, I'd like their input as well)
Anyway, I think I may have said before on this or another forum that I tend to believe that splendida and nigrita may just be the same animal. Others I'm sure have stated their opinions as well.
I have kept and bred both for their respective "accepted looks" (nigrita =pure black,splendida=patterned)
and it seems that over the years I've had some look like the other in a few cases.
Do you think this is from purely c.b. "crosses" years back or that they both vary from pure black to patterned? Or that they are one in the same? Other ideas?
Has there been any recent works/studies to substantiate or refute any such claim?
Honestly, I like nearly all phases but tend to appreciate those pure black ones and also the starkly patterned ones. The intermediate being less appealing to me.
Any thoughts?
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

well mark sorry,no phd here,lol....but to me this is an interesting topic.anyway,did'nt know if you're aware yeah they are the same animal(more or less)...well,same species,different subsepcies...yes they naturally intergrade,in southeast arizona...'pure' nigrita is from south central az,down into mexico...'pure' splendida start somewhere between extreme southeastern az and/or southwestern edge of new mexico,and then spread east thru central texas(where,yep,they start to intergrade with speckleds,holbrooki)....not sure if this is what you wanted to know or helps at all.but i guess my point is,they have a decent sized overlap in range,so it's probably not purely a result of breeders' doing,i.e. it happens all the time in the wild.

I like the " same snake, different geographic/locality/phase" theory. I have a ton of both, but I do know that splendies enjoy a better/greater variety of habitat. Got 'em on the barrier island next to the beach! Yeah, same snake. My .02.
Todd Hughes

I think they're the same snake, different color phase/pattern. The two phases crossover right where I live, Tucson, AZ. Most of the getula found around here are very melanistic. There are exceptions, and sometimes beautifully patterned splendida, and even californiae can be found. Pure black snakes can be found along the Santa Cruz valley south from Tucson into Mexico.
Here is what a typical Tucson king (lampropeltis speedwayensis!) looks like.
Greg

I have seen black kings from tucson, to well into mex(northern sonora. I have also seen splendida types from tucson to southern N.L. mex. No where have I seen or heard of an area with only black kings. All locals that I have heard of or have seen include pattern individuals to some extent.

As to why its published as some kind of subspecies is based on very old information and most likely has not been important enough to be redone. Actually I think biologists are big chickens, as redoing the getulus complex would indeed be a major nightmare. They would have to make changes from coast to coast.

Consider, in the old days biologists could describe animals from a very few bits of data(one animal). There was very little data to be had. To redo getulus would now include tens of thousands of new bits of information. Or low and behold, it would take some actual field research. You know biologist hate to go out and get dirty, its such a messy business. And its unrealiable. Just some thoughts, cheers

Hahaha...FR, you're killin' me.

I think the problem with biologists is they tend to be too specialized, not that they are too intellectual or never get in the field. I've been trying to encourage taxonomists to do more work on the ratsnakes (Elaphe, etc.) for years. It's such a difficult undertaking, and most species are in the Old World. The only thing it seems folks want to do these days is dna work..Ughhh!

I'm with you on all your splendida vs. nigrita stuff. Most juves I've seen in the Santa Cruz Valley are patterned, but I think they turn pretty dark as they get older. There's all different color phases in Green Valley which is what I think we're taking about here...color phases.

TC

(Hi Mark) Me thinks it be the same animal!
Think of all the variabilities that other same snake species exhibit within same area & from other areas: ie: Alternas, heteredon, goini/meansis, thayeris etc. etc.
Jus' my 1.2 cents . . .

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

I believe nigrita and splendida are the same, i also believe californiae may fall into this sub-group. Then again i believe a lot of strange stuff,
holbrooki=nigra,
"goini"=L.g.getula
alterna=mexicana

I'd like to think they were the same snake. I have a pair of clean black MBKs. The female has a few spots of white and orange on her belly, the male has a two spots of white on his chin, but other than that, very clean MBKs. This is one of the babies they produced.

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chickabowwow

You say that that baby was produced by 2 nigritas?! The baby looks (thin bands & black saddles) awful like a splendida to me!

reako45

Yeah, but his pattern has already faded quite a bit. It's still very noticeable, but not as bold as it was after his first shed.
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chickabowwow

so how many solid black and how many patterned did they produce? thanks in advance.

Out of a clutch of 11, two looked like the one in the picture, I think another two were solid black, a few more were almost solid black but still had a few spots, and then the rest were in between. You could literally see remnants of a splendida pattern on most of them. That's just how they looked after the first shed. The ones with patterns are starting to lose them.
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chickabowwow