Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I need to know just how toxic they are.I dont intend on using it inside my cages but Im thinking the mite infestations are coming from outside the cages somehow. If I hang one of these things near my cages will it affect the snakes/lizards? And will it kill any mites in the general vicinity of the cages? And is it toxic to humans(mainly my 4yo)...Thanks Cee

Also if it is in an adjoining room could it kill my roach colony?
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They have to put on the package whether it is non toxic, and it varies from brand to brand. Just take a look at the package.

And you have a roach colony? In your HOUSE?

I know that they are toxic just dont know HOW toxic..Some of those bug killers will kill everything..Yes I have a roach colony in the house, my laundry room to be exact.They'd freeze outside and wouldnt reproduce.But its a very small colony in a ten gallon tank.And I keep rats and mice in my freezer. Its just what you do when you have reptiles...
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>I need to know just how toxic they are.I dont intend on using it inside my cages but Im thinking the mite infestations are coming from outside the cages somehow. If I hang one of these things near my cages will it affect the snakes/lizards? And will it kill any mites in the general vicinity of the cages? And is it toxic to humans(mainly my 4yo)...Thanks Cee

Snake mites walk around, fall out of cages to the floor, and walk around the floor until they climb into another cage to feed on another herp.

I have successfully used one No-Pest strip against mites in a whole room. Mine had the active ingredient 2,2-dichlorovinyl dimethyl phosphate (AKA Dichlorvos, AKA Vapona). Accept no substitutes!

After 24 hours, the pair of zebra finches in the room were dead. After 30 days, the mites were all dead. The snakes seemed fine. However, the vapor will dissolve in water and can injure the herps if they drink it. So give water for short periods and dump it.

Yes, it is toxic to humans if they get enough of it. Keep your kid away from the stuff. Do not let it touch bare skin. My snake room had a separate exhaust to the outdoors so it tended to be exhausted rather than spreading to the rest of the house.

For more information, check the Material Safety Data sheet. You can use a Google search for "Dichlorvos" and "MSDS". Here is a URL for some information: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/dichlorvos/

>Also if it is in an adjoining room could it kill my roach colony?

It could. From what I've heard, it has a reputation for doing exactly that.

In my opinion, there are safer ways to kill mites. For example, putting cages on legs which rest in bowls of water with some dish soap will drown any mites that fall in and keep the mites from climbing into the cages that way.

Paul Hollander

No-pest strips (Vapona) were the rage about 20 years ago for killing mites. Can be toxic to birds (someone found out, eh?), and will wipe out any insects, good or bad that the air can get the fumes to. Also toxic to small snakes. Used to find pythons laying on the ones they knocked down in the cages, lol. For a cheap source, go to WalMart and buy their "Equate" brand of spray for bed lice. Same active ingredient as the "well known snake mite spray". Ignore the odd look from the cashier as you check out with 6 cans of bed lice spray 5 oz for $4 per can, I think. Use as directed. Spray all over the cage, inside and out, let dry for an hour, and remember to spray the substrate your animal is on. Remember that snake mites can crawl 50' in an hour(yes, those tiny mites), looking for snakes, but shouldn't crawl over sprayed areas. Shouldn't kill the roaches in the other room...but I'd try a couple just to make sure.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

sounds like I DONT want to use them.If it kills birds in the same room what would my kids be breathing in...I will try the Equate lice spray and the bowls of soapy water on the legs of my stand(what a great idea)..Thanks again...Cc
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Actually, I got kinda used to the smell of Vapona. If my wife had used a touch behind the ear...who knows, I might have had 2 kids instead of one

Stuff sure was hard to cut up, though.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

> Stuff sure was hard to cut up, though.

Yeah. Twenty years ago I had a big pair of tin snips, and it was easier to cut sheet metal than the Strip.

Thanks for mentioning the lice spray. The best herper in this area recommended it to me a year or so ago. Fortunately, I've been mite free for several years now.

Paul Hollander

>> Stuff sure was hard to cut up, though.

I used my trusty box cutter....then discarded the blade. Ah, the bad old days.

-Joan

The problem with No Pest Strips is that the vapor can settle on water in water bowls if the cages have screen tops. Since it works by releasing vapor, if the vapor can get into another room, then insects there might be affected.

A better alternative is Provent-a-Mite from www.pro-products.com. The reason is, you can spray all around the cages w/o worry, and you can spray in the cages if you follow the simple directions of taking the animal and water out, spraying a light coat inside, then letting it dry completely before returning the animal. Using it in this way is effective yet safe for the animal. Really does kill mites and helps to prevent re-infestations.

Provent-a-mite and the Walmart bed lice spray have the same active ingredient, pyrithrin, which is pretty safe. If your budget is tight, head to WallMart. Same results, applied the same.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

>>Provent-a-mite and the Walmart bed lice spray have the same active ingredient, pyrithrin, which is pretty safe. If your budget is tight, head to WallMart. Same results, applied the same.

Here is the response from a previous thread explaining the difference between the two products and the dangers related to misuse.

I just got this email back from Bob at Pro-Products this morning, explaning the difference between a regular permethrin based pesticide and provent a mite. Here is his reply. This is like saying that laundry detergent and hand dishwashing liquid are the same because they are both "soap". Try to soak your snake in powdered laundry detergent and see what the "active & inert" ingredients can cause. There are different isomers of permethrin which all have different toxicity levels as well as the synergists, surfactants and other inerts, many which are toxic to reptiles that are used in these other products. None of this is or has to be disclosed on the label. Pyrethrins are widely used in many products as they pose no major risk to mammals and birds as a rule, but they are definitely toxic to reptiles. Most of these products also use chemicals such as Piperonyl butoxide, which is a synergist that modifies and increases the toxicity of the active in various ways. One will find that most formulations use this and/or other synergists as it is much cheaper than the active and creates a more lethal product. Studies have been done, and products are marketed, showing that Piperonyl butoxide as well as other chemicals are definitely toxic to reptiles, regarding the killing of brown tree and other snakes, and improve the formula to do just that. You can do a search on these products used in the South Pacific and Indonesia that use various formulas to KILL snakes. They are packaged in high pressure containers (like a wasp & hornet spray) so you can hit the snake up to 20 feet away. These products can be absolutely lethal to snakes. Many product labels can appear to be the same or very similar as Provent-a-mite as to the generic active, but they are very different products. There are many other chemicals in these formulas that will never be made public and since the manufacture did not make any claims to the EPA (or on the label) that the product would be safe and effective on reptiles, no such studies or proof would be required. Many of these inerts can be potentially toxic to reptiles and since no tests or studies have ever been performed, no one knows. Since all formulas are proprietary and secret, no one will ever know what is really in the can and will only be sure that the product is OK to use with reptiles if that claim is specifically on the label. This is why it is a federal offense to sell, distribute, offer for sale, promote or use any pesticide for an unlabeled use. The EPA enforces this, as using a pesticide indiscriminately for a non tested use can have deleterious effects on the site, host and environment and they do not want any such problems to develop. These products have never been clinically tested on reptiles and are not the same formula as Provent-a-mite. Also many of these products are designed to break down quickly, which will expose the mites and ticks to a sub-lethal dose, which can lead to(and has with other species of ectoparasites)creating a resistant strain of ectoparasites that would be difficult if not impossible to eradicate! Call these companies and ask if their product is safe to use on reptiles, and to put it in writing and see what response you get. Many people have learned the hard way that these products are not the same formula as Provent-a-mite. Often, these products can cause chronic long term problems, so one never associates the demise of the animal with a mite treatment done previously as well as outright death of the reptile. Provent-a-mite is the only product approved by the EPA and the USDA, specifically for use with reptiles (no other product can say this). Provent-a-mite is approved for the uses stated on our label for which such an approval would not have been granted without submitting the required efficacy and toxicity studies. The EPA requires very detailed studies done by a specific set of protocols in order to register a formula for a specific use. These studies must follow certain guidelines and conform to such certifications as GLP (good laboratory practices) or equivalent. We spent 6 years and several tests/studies before we received EPA approval for our product to be used specifically on reptiles. This was after the approximately 10 years we spent developing the formula. We had to show that Provent-a-mite didn't hurt the reptile, had efficacy results per our claims and did not pose any risk or environmental hazards when used per the directions as set forth in our submittal. Most of our studies, like any other company, contain proprietary information, so will never be released to the public. However, there are a few completed, non proprietary studies that either have been published or will be soon. What follows is an excerpt from a paper that will be published in the near future in a recognized scientific journal. Until it is published, we can't provide any additional information. "...However, it was realized that different formulations of acaricides contain different ingredients in addition to the active compound, some of which might be toxic to reptiles. For example, Piperonyl butoxide, added to some formulations as a synergist, has been associated with snake mortality. Therefore, commercially available permethrin formulations were examined and only one, a patented formulation containing 0.5% permethrin called Provent-a-miteT(Pro Products, Mahopac, New York), was found which had been prepared specifically for use on reptiles and which had been marketed in the United States for several years as an acaricide for control of mites and ticks that feed on reptiles. The clinical effects of application of Provent-a-miteT were studied on three species of reptiles by direct application to African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata) and by application to the bedding of rosy boas (Lichanura trivirgata) and green iguanas (Iguana iguana), using on each occasion 10 times the recommended dosage every fifth day for a total of six applications. Despite the excessive doses of acaricides applied, no evidence of toxic reactions related to treatment with the permethrin formulation was found in any of the three species of reptiles treated, suggesting that Provent-a-miteT is a safe product to use as an acaricide for control of ticks on tortoises, snakes and lizards..." People are always making claims about various pesticides and state they are OK to use with reptiles when they have no knowledge as to what chemicals are even in the formula. Even with a product that lists the same "generic" active, the active can be a different isomer and the remainder of the formula will always be a mystery. Just because one does not see any negative outward effects after using an off labeled product, certainly doesn't mean that it is not causing chronic health problems to the animal over the long term or creating other problems, such as the potential for resistant mites and other environmental damage. No Pest strips were once considered safe (and some people still hang on to this theory), but after many years of our reptiles being guinea pigs, it was found that they are harmful, both acutely and chronically. Some of our leading vets, including Douglas Mader as well as several zoos have confirmed this. Unless the product has been specifically tested and approved for use by the USEPA, no one can state whether or not it can be harmful to a reptile. Bob@ Pro Products
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Matt Campbell

Big animals, little animals, plants - right down to the sea itself. We need them, not just for their own sake, but because all this has to be here for everybody forever. Only one thing is certain: if we are to preserve our environment and save this priceless wildlife we need much, much more knowledge.
Harry Butler from 'In the Wild With Harry Butler' 1977