Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it possible to mix breed a Vieled and a Panther? If not why isn't it possible? Just a curious thought...

The two are separate species and may even be in different genus. One of the main parts of the definition of "species" and "genus" is that the animals are not capable of hybridizing due to very different genetic patterns and behavior. At some point far back in their evolutionary history they may have had a common ancestor, but they have evolved apart as their wild ranges are not connected. In an artificial situation like a cage they might try (the male may be aggressive enough to try mating with anything), but chances are they would be infertile. Even some localities of panthers don't seem to be able to breed with other locales. They may have been separated long enough to become genetically distinct from the others.

I know that the next few thing are not Chameleons but they are all mixed breeds. The Burm and Retic, and Burm and Rocks get crossed. Ball and Bloods, and Ball and the Angolan(I think thats the spelling). Mix Carpets and Diamonds. I know these are all Pythons and I to knowing hardly anything about breeding Chameleons lol.

Just my 2 cents on the matter thow. I can see both why they could and couldnt breed thow. If I messed up correct me thow.

Blake Deffenbaugh

The python crosses mentioned above, were all within the same genus. Panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis), and veild chameleons (Chameleo calyptratus), are in different genuses. I supose it could be possible to cross congenerics i.e. members of the same genus, but I have never heard of it hapening in chameleons.

Yeah, Panther chameleons and Veileds are very different. The difference between a burm and a retic, or a diamond and a carpet, is negligible and recent. The difference between a veiled and a panther is like the difference between a python and a boa. Sure, they're both boids, but even if you could get two in the same cage, keep them alive long enough and put on some romantic music and dim the lights, they would never reproduce.

I didnt know they where that different lol. I think it would be awesome to see a Veiled with the colors of a Panther. But I'm very doubtfull that it would or could even happen.

I'm hopein to get a Panther this year so I'll be checkin back in the forum when the time comes for all your help if you'll give it.

Blake Deffenbaugh

Well said. They are in different genuses though.

>>Is it possible to mix breed a Vieled and a Panther? If not why isn't it possible? Just a curious thought...

The comment about them being different genera and therefore not able to hybridize may or may not be true. Reproductive barrier may or may not be a character of speciation.

In fact the concept "what is a species?" is widely debated and probably needs to be addressed differently in different taxa.

For instance in colubrids: Kingsnakes (Genus Lampropeltis) Gophersnakes (Genus Pituophis) and Ratsnakes (Genus Elaphe) all have fertile cross generic hybrids. In fact the hybrids have been crossed making triple generic hybrids, which all appear to be fertile.

Now for the original question: Can Veiled Chams and Panther Chams cross breed? My opinion? I doubt it. Further, why would you take a perfectly good panther chameleon and add veiled to it anyhow??
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

Further, why would you take a perfectly good panther chameleon and add veiled to it anyhow??

hey - are you slamming veileds? Some of us may see it the other way around They may not be as spectacular in color, but should be appreciated for what they are. Both have their good and not-so-good points.

you can't get much pretttier than this

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You are right. The whole definition of species has been debated for years. I just tried to state what is generally believed to explain why you can't just plop 2 animals together and expect babies. Even if by some chance a veiled and a panther managed to produce live young chances are the offspring would be sterile. Also, the systematics of Chamaeleonidae has also been debated and reworked over and over. I suppose taxonomists need something to do on the weekend!

Even if by some chance a veiled and a panther managed to produce live young chances are the offspring would be sterile.

Based upon the experiences of other reptiles and cross hybrids (generic or otherwise) I'd say it is likely they'd be fertile until proven sterile.

FWIW a mammalian hybrid between two genera of kangaroo is fertile. Check it out. In reptiles fertile hybrids are more common than you would think, based upon what they taught us in school.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

It's entirely hypothetical, as nobody to my knowledge has bothered to
try it. I'd say it's got a chance. Pardalis and verrous have crossed, but
are both obviously closely related. Chamaeleo and Furcifer are relativly
new, they USED to be the same genus, so I wouldn't go by that "rule".

Snakes are one thing, chameleons are another. Snakes are, for th
emost part, not specialized. They bask, they eat other animals, and they
either lay eggs or give birth to live young. And some live in the trees.
not too much difference between Kings and corns and milks.

now, a pantehr lives in a humid area, likes it warm. Calyptratus can take
it over 100, or survive freezing temps (with some behavioral tricks), they
can take it humid or dry, eat plants if they need too.

For all we know, those snakes might be relativly recent species - maybe
just a few thousand years from divergence.

Who knows when the ancient chameleon ancestor diverged into the
arabian calyptratus and the malagasy species? It could be hundreds of
thousands of years ago.

And, by the way, I've seen plenty of ugly pardalis. in fact, the vast
majority of pardalis are nothing special. Plain green, a few bars or
stripes. Big whoop. The ones selected for captive breeding have nice
colors for sure, but many of them are dogs. Furthermore, many of the
nicest pardalis are ugly when rested (99% of their lives).

Few pardalis look this nice when resting -

My comment about ruining a good panther with a veiled was a joke.

Your animal is outstanding. !!!
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

Thanks, I take every oppurtunity to post images of him - I'm so proud of
these stupid lizards, Imagine how I am with my daughter!

Panther vs. Veiled - who would win?

I'm going to say my veiled in his prime would have been a match for any
chameleon, he was tough. Although, come to think about it, he'd
probably just try to mount any other chameleon...

Though he did try to eat my melleri when it was young.

Melleri are ahead in the "vs." category. I think they're 9-0 against
parsonii, if I recall correctly. No idea if anybody's pitted ousteleti
against another giant, however.

hehe.

not to be taken seriously, by the way. I'm sure the owners of those
aforementioned parsonii don't think it's too funny, etiher!

Although I do not breed herps I do breed wild silk moths and the discussion of hybridization and crossing comes up often. There are some in the same genus that have been successfully mated and had fertile offspring, however there are others within a genus that cannot mate with one another as well as cross-genera. Be it the chemical makeup of pheromones, flight time (time of day or time of year, which can be off by just a matter of hours. Would be similar to different habitats of chams as Eric pointed out) and in some the actual physical makeup of their genitalia where they simply cannot physically mate no matter how hard they may try.

So I wonder if this is true in chams at all, either within or outside of a given genus. If habitats are far enough apart then this would not be a concern if the two are likely to never come in contact with each, but nature/evolution has its way of creating these thresholds. It is not until we get our hands on them (lizards, moths, humans) that we want to make them bigger, more brilliantly colored, etc.

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet