Reptile & Amphibian Forums

at our nature center we have a female black rat snake of unknown age. we obtained her ~1992 when she was ~5' long.

several times in the last few years she has come down with a respiratory problem in the fall/winter. baytril had always worked quickly.

this time it has not. for several weeks, i gave baytril in the dose prescribed by the vet. no improvment. then a friend suggested amakacin. new prescription and tried that. no improvement.

new vet. he did a cultural sensitvity test which showed:

S baytril
S doxycycline
R keslex
R trimthoprine
R septra
R cliudumycin
R ampicillin
R amoki (sp?)

he gave me doxycycline. used that for a month. no improvement. tried doxy, alternating w/ baytril for a week. no improvement.
xrayed the snake last week: completely clean!

the snake is kept 75-80. since beginning the meds i have temp up to 90 daytime.

any suggestions?

i'm fearing that this snake is just "elderly" with an immune system that cannot bounce back anymore.(?) this specimen is our "kitten" and we'd love to have her as long as possible.

thanks for anyone's help!

The temps sound good as long as there continues to be a gradient. Also consider other factors in the husbandry. Stress is unlikely since it's been captive so long, but has there been any changes? What is the humidity like? Does this always happen in the winter when it's really dry?

Another, common mistake is with the culture and sensitivity test. There are a few antibiotics used commonly in reptiles that weren't tested. They arn't common antibiotics, and thus need a special request for testing. I didn't see amakacin on there either. (a note with amakacin is that many vets will avoid using it in sick individuals as it may compromise kidney function. Hydration is key, and an elderly individual may be more at risk)

So, my recommendations are to review husbandry (as always), do further cultures perhaps, and also consider bloodwork. It'll let you know the extent of the infection, as well as any organ systems that may be vulnerable to both the illness and the treatment. What are the symptoms seen that indicate illness?

Ian

oops! perhaps i left amakacin off the list but it was tested and the test showed it wouldn't work. it hadn't in weeks of injection.

we are in an old mansion so humidity is low. this is the only snake of the bunch that has problems tho. other than "sprizting" water how could i improve? she sits in water sometimes.

symptoms: she has an open mouth sometimes. she has a bit of what the one vet called mouth rot (what's the real name again?) little bit of sound when she breathes.

again, she's had this a few times in the last 5 years. none of the others have.

i can look into a blood test. is that something standard or are there specifics to look for in this situation?

For humidity, misting once daily is usually adequate. I find if you mist in the hide box, the humidity lingers their and they have a nice retreat that resembles what would occur under a tree or rock in the wilderness.

If you have to, you can also decrease the ventilation to keep the humidity in longer, although be sure to allow moderate air flow. I always use a digital thermometer/hygrometer so I'm not guessing my variables. It cost me about $45 at homedepot.

Sometimes with concurrent inflammation or mouth disease scarr tissue will develope. This may contribute to any wheezing and or slightly parted lips, and should be considered when addressing what's "normal" for this snake. If the vet sees mouthrot, he/she is seeing stomatitis. Stomatitis inherently means inflammation of the stoma, or oral tissue. In herps, this is most often related to infection and/or trauma. Is this a nose rubbing snake?

Also ask the vet for other antibiotics that may be tested. I don't have my formulary in front of me and my drug spelling is notorious at times.

The blood work I suggested comes in two parts, and it can be chosen to do one part or both. A CBC mainly focuses on the blood cells. Different concentrations of various white cells, and red cells can tell the DVM if infection is present, if allergin/parasites may be indicated, if inflammation, dehydration, toxicities ect. are likely. Different virus' and pathogens may also make the cells look different as well, and this may or may not be apparent.
The second part is a blood chemestry. Again, this can assess dehydration, but it mainly looks at what the organs are doing, and how are they functioning. In geriatric patients, time has likely deteriorated the organs, as in any animal. Quantifying this deterioration will allow the DVM to see if they are still functioning adequately enough to handle the drugs provided, or in worse scenerios, it will notify the DVM that further specific treatment is needed.
All in all, blood work is most beneficial if previous bloodwork has been done on the patient for a comparison, however normal values are published more and are more readily available for more species of herps. This means that the vet will still be able to use a first-time sample.

I hope this helps, it sounds like your vet has a handle on this for now. Let us know how things go

Ian

ian-

no, this snake does not rub. she is very very calm.

she has had the same mouth problem every time previously in what i've called the "respiratory problem." one friend suggested betadine (sp?) swabbed on mouth. thoughts?

i'll spritz.

i'll try to get blood work done. its never been done previously.

thanks so much for you info and concern!

r a y

Sounds like a plan. The betadine is a topical antiseptic, and should be beneficial, but perhaps discuss this with the vet when the bloodwork is done since he/she has actually seen the condition where I have not.

i work for a park system in ohio. the ohio park "grapevine" recommended a cleveland vet. after receiving permission to travel to cleveland last thursday i was finally able to find the time.

this vet said the snake was not really too bad. didn't think blood work, additional cultures, or xrays were needed. gave me gentmycin (every 3 days) and vibrac oral hygiene rinse (daily). haven't seem much change after two treatments but i'm hopeful.

thank for your advice and concern. i'll let you know how it goes.

r a y