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I have a young CB Gulf Coast box turtle. I purchased this turtle from a breeder at a SC herp show. I purchased two "clutch-mates" as I was told. They were both very large hatchlings, have flared margins, and are slightly flattened...all earmarks of Gulf Coast box turtles. But, one turtle has only three toes on its hind feet.

I know that occasional specimens of any T.carolina ssp. can have three toed hind feet and that Gulf coasts and Three-toes can have genetic mixing in certain areas of their ranges. Basically, my question is:
Has anyone with experience breeding Gulf coast box turtles encountered occasional turtles with three toes on their hind feet? Basically, I am afraid I was sold a hybrid. I want to keep any future lines true. It's a great turtle, I just may not breed it.

Rear foot toe count isn't a surefire way to designate major vs. triunguis. major's can have three toes. You might wait till the animal is large enough to have additional morphological characteristics of the subspecies before making judgment on whether to breed it. Can't hurt to do that since the animal won't breed till then anyway.

The "purity" of captive T. c. major lines is questionable, anyway. Specimens from southeast Louisiana tend to look different than the ones I've seen in the Florida panhandle. Relatedness in such variable animals will always be relative when we're talking captive lines of unknown geographic origin.

I may want to purchase from this individual in the future. I'm still trying to establish a self-sustaining colony of major. He showed me pictures of the adults that these babies reportedly came from. They are supposed to be Panama City locale turtles. I'll tell you, the one baby looks exactly like the male. This other turtle does not resemble either parent. I'm really trying to reinforce my own opinion that the dude lied to me.

I see it much like ornata and luteola, which I've been trying to research for a while now. You have "suspect" individuals of which there is no remarkable difference, and then you have starkly contrasting turtles. These particular adult Gulf coasts screamed "subspecies". There was no doubt in my mind that they should be separate subspecies from any other T.c.

Conant wrote that occasional specimens of any subspecies may have three hind toes. I'm concerned about the frequency among major. I mean, what are the odds that, of the two hatchlings I purchase, one has this genetic trait? If it's fairly common, the odds go up.

I was really hoping to hear from someone with a lot of major breeding experience, who could give me some idea of the frequency of this trait in their lines if at all. If it is common, which it very well may be due to the "sandwiching" of major between triunguis and bauri (both rear 3-toed), I'll feel more at ease. Frankly, this guy is my only major source right now. Boy, I hope he doesn't read this forum.

This is the other hatchling. The male adult was very large and nearly as flat as a RES. He had intensely upward flared margins and half of his head was white. He also had a very blocky head. This young one is starting to look like him.

"I was really hoping to hear from someone with a lot of major breeding experience, who could give me some idea of the frequency of this trait in their lines if at all. If it is common, which it very well may be due to the "sandwiching" of major between triunguis and bauri (both rear 3-toed), I'll feel more at ease. Frankly, this guy is my only major source right now. Boy, I hope he doesn't read this forum."

Hahahahahaaa... for the sake of your relationship, I hope not, too. When it comes to captive-bred major, I can't help you out. I've always left the ones I've seen down here where I found them, so I've never gotten hatchlings. However, I can confirm that they do "frequently" (compared to easterns) have three toes. Problem is, "here" is southeast Louisiana, and the parents of your animals are not from here. I couldn't tell you how common or not three toes are in panhandle major, as I don't guess I've seen enough from that area.

The good thing for your situation is, we're talking about a REALLY characteristic subspecies, one that we rely more on structure than on color to identify. For that reason, you should be able to tell as your questionable animal gets older. If it's female, there's a chance it could be trickey, since I've seen a panhandle major female that looked remarkably like a larger-than-average triunguis. One important question is, does the seller seem to have any reason for fibbing? How likely is it that he exposes major and triunguis to one another?

The variability I've seen within single clutches of triunguis has been significant. Conversely, some clutches have resulted in hatchlings that all look identical. I figure either one of these could apply to major clutchmates, too, hey? Ben

It hit me about a week later when he I noticed that the turtle only had 3 rear toes. I talked to the guy for quite a while. He had sold out of 3-toe hatchlings already, and these were the only two major left. He told me a sob story of half of his colony perishing:
He had a barrel of some sort of pesticide for killing the termites that invaded his house. He had to go out of town for a few days, and he forgot that he left the barrel uncovered. There were torrential downpours while he was gone, and the poison water pooled around the base of the barrel. He said that some very expensive tortoises were lost, as well as some of his major and triunguis. I was so excited about my new charges, I didn't make the connection that they must be all roaming around the same area. But, I guess it's possible that the pesticide flowed into pens. He wasn't very specific.

Ok, here's the pic again. Don't worry, I'll keep waiting for those structural clues. But, you tell me, at first glance...no pressure now...major, triunguis, or hybrid? Personally, my triunguis that I currently have are Texas origin. They reproduce like mad, and the hatchlings look vastly different from this one. I've seen the pics of your triunguis...I'm assuming they're pets and not wild animals, due to the groups of them you show (very pretty by the way, I love the striated carapace...mine have very plain shells). So, what do you think?

I don't have an opinion on which subspecies your hatchling would claim. Both subspecies seem to throw hatchlings that are too darned variable. In my area, variation ranges between triunguis and major, or all-the-way, either way.

Some of the animals here look like relatively colorful triunguis with four toes (too common a characteristic here to dismiss as chance in my opinion). Some male animals scream hybrid between the two subspecies, although I've seen two males in the captial city that looked 100% major. At the same time, many animals look 100% triunguis (except for that common fourth toe). I can't say whether any of this applies to the hatchlings here, since I haven't seen enough.

Pretty much all the box turtles currently in my care are triunguis from elsewhere, brought without request by people who "rescued" them from roads or decided they no longer wanted them. And a few of the offspring they've had. My most colorful male (no pictures uploaded) was brought to me locally, and is a likely hybrid between triunguis and major.

A funny question is, if one has animals from a region such as mine, how should you breed them? With one another (other hybrids) only? They're already hybrids, so to speak. So do you not breed them at all? Or do you turn them into 75% hybrids by breeding them with full triunguis or full major (as opposed to 50% equal major/triunguis)? Do you sell them as "less favorable" hybrids, even though they're as natural as full triunguis or major (even more natural than full triunguis x triunguis from, say, north LA x east TX)? Southeast Louisiana box turtles (triunguis with presumable major influence and vice versa) are on average prettier than east Texas box turtles (where populations are currently commercially collected). I'd bet as people figure out genetic routes to prettier colors and patterns, concern over hybridization will diminish. We can already find carolina/ornata crosses in the trade. It's a curious delimma, and we can only wonder where the ethical lines of blood-mixing will stand in the future of box turtle breeding. Just the same, for the sake of your current purposes, I hope your hatchling is full major. Ben