Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I wasn’t going to post about this stuff yet, but it looks like many are missing the point.

A range of temperature is vital for these lizards, it's important for there metabolism to function properly, this not only for the babies but adults and juveniles alike.

Here’s an example these are from the same clutch, one was raised in the 68f-75f range, the other was raised in the 75f-95 range. They where fed exactly the same foods and kept well hydrated, I stop the experiment because the smaller one is showing sings of improper development, no need for me to experiment any farther, the results are obvious.

Earlier I asked about the feeding habits of baby capra’s, under my care they feed twice a day, I was surprised to hear that your capra’s also eat twice a day, have you changed your husbandry sins I started posting?

Anyway the point is a dayly raise in temperature is vital for these dragons.

Hello,

I'm not new to the forum, however, I've just recieved my first trio of capra's from marcia the other day. I'm going to start jumping in on these discussions merely for my benefit and others as well.

Now, regarding your interesting topics, I'm going to start very slightly" heating my enclosure" and see what effects this has on the occupants. It does make sense that they will sleep on the upper most leaves to recieve the sun in the morning and the vital D3 these animals need. I've worked with several animals over the years, but from my early viewing of this species from Reptiles Magazine and Marcia's article, it seems I'm all in so to speak now!

I'm a strong advocate for the use of UVB bulbs, and Zoo Med Reptisun is one that I've been using with great results for years. Now this is what I'm interested in trying out. I'm going to use my Tubes in combo now with a small wattage bulb(namely Sylvania), as these have lasted me for long periods in the past. I'm going to start by using this bulb on one side of the enclosure with the tube running the length. I'm interested to see what the growth is like and namely what this does to the appetite of the animals. Keep in mind this is going to be very low watt, just enought to get the top of the cage to an 85 degree basking temp. Thus keeping the ground level at room temp and the higher up the animals travel the warmer they get. Don't you just love heat gradients.

Anyways, this is something that I'm willing to test, and judging from your results Jobi, it looks like it works. Also on a side note: mine have also eaten twice today(as I've only had them for a day). This seems like a great strategy, and keeping with it seems like it should work. It only makes sense that these animals do eat on a regular basis, considering that they are up in the trees, there would be plenty of insects etc. for them to munch up! Just some thoughts..............

All The Best,
Anthony

I have a dish of minimealworms in the cage all the time but twice a day I will hand feed them silks or hornworms. Then I put a few on leaves and stems. I have put small roaches in a dish but haven't noticed anyone going for them. Of course tiny crickets get thrown in at times also. When I use crickets I will put a piece of carrot in also for them. This seems to help keep them off the babies. I have tried to catch uneaten ones but I'm not to good at it. I found some very small earthworms in my backyard (in a pile of leaves after a rain) and put them in also. Babies weren't interested.
My first clutch couldn't get enough minimealworms but this one seems to prefer the hornworms (1st) and silks (2nd).

Heat is mandatory, these lizards use it when they need it, hear a typical example of what I am trying to show. When I read your post last knight, I went in my reptile room to get a photo that shows how some will get close to the heat source, so they get heat first thing in the morning, however this is what I saw, a capra clinging to the light fixture, this is why I only use 25w bulbs (no possible burn injury) however this socket gets to 135-150f, much more then we expect these lizards to use. In the next photo you can see and better understand why this lizard needed the extra heat, he swallowed a tree frog half as big as him. The need for heat is directly related to digestion, more food more heat and vice versa. Now imagine if this lizard didn’t have access to heat, he ether would have passed on this large meal? Or he would be regurgitating it for not being able to digest it properly.
Did I mention they love tree frogs? Enough for me to start a breeding colony.

Needles to say when lizards are allowed to optimally metabolise this way, they must be sustained with good foods in quantities, no question about starving them, not even for a day. At this moment I am fine tuning the diet, this is why my temps are at a stand still, I can’t make anymore progress till I know witch foods are digested faster and provides the needed nutrients. An example of this, set two groups exactly the same way, feed one crickets exclusively and the other meal worms exclusively, you will soon realise that the cricket group feeds much more then the mealworms group, crickets are digested faster.
Being longer to digest mealworms aren’t a good food for fast metabolising lizards, in this case the lizard will seek lower temps otherwise regurgitation will happen. A lower metabolism leads to less food intake witch leads to slow growth, this is not so bad for growing babies, however it’s terrible for minerals intake and cycling females, more faster digestible foods provide the needed minerals to a female, stuffing her with foods that will slow her metabolism and take forever to digest will disrupt her follicular development, she may still produce eggs, but not as often and these eggs may not be strong, leading to hatch failure or weak babies.

I haven’t try the hookworm and hornworms yet, they surely seem to fit the dragons menu.
But for this coming year I will focus on crickets, my goal is to get my temps to NTL 75f and a DTL about 90-92f with basking possibilities, at the moment I can not do this because I don’t have the right support. I need to keep a DTL 75f for the slower metabolizing lizards, you may ask what difference those it makes? Well in one case you raise babies to reproductive adults in one year time, in the next it take longer.

My friend Ingo thinks I should not post my ideas on this forum, he fears that keepers will try my way and kill there lizards in the process, I don’t disagree with him.
You should be careful with your captives and make changes only if you understand the implications.

I think the more we know the better, the little bits I am sharing now can lead to big improvements later.

Rgds

Jobi, I have been trying to tell everyone for months that I use UTH pads on the sides of my babies tanks to allow them to thermoregulate as needed. I will choose one corner and place 3 pads on it, one on each of 2 adjacent walls and one on the bottom. Then I make sure there are plants that have leaves in all of the corners so that the babies can choose the temps that they need. The younger the babies the more I see them in the warm corner of the tank, usually in the leaves closest to the glass.

Now, the stump tailed babies I currently have are the oldest, but smallest, leps I have. They have been eating mostly silkworms since I got them in June supplimented with mini-mealworms and occassional very small mealworms. I ran out of the silkworms and put in some roach nymphs. This is a new food for them. I know they are eating as they all have nice round bellies. But, yesterday I notices something peculiar. These babies are almost always in the fake plants on the tops of the top leaves. Occasionally they may be on the base of the plants clinging to the stems. However, last night when I got home 3 of them were laying on the bottom of the tank right up against the glass where the UTH is placed. So, in light of reading your post I am thinking that this may have something to do with digesting the roaches which are much larger and more solid than the food items that they had been eating previously. Tonight I will put a net up on that wall and see if they use it after feeding!

In hindsight I seem to recall one clutch in particular that would always head to the warm tree after feeding on mealworms. I never really put this together! I have known that the heat is important for the babies but just didn't put it all of the way in to perspective!

I know a lot of the people I have told about the UTHs are afraid they are going to cook their babies but I have stated again and again that the new hatchlings seem to feed better and sooner if they are kept a little warmer and fewer hatchlings are lost! I will have to keep the heat on these guys longer and see if they do mature a bit faster. I know in the past they have taken 18 months to 2 years. It sure would be nice to see a full grown animal in 12 months if it doesn't compromise his health!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

>>Heat is mandatory, these lizards use it when they need it, hear a typical example of what I am trying to show. When I read your post last knight, I went in my reptile room to get a photo that shows how some will get close to the heat source, so they get heat first thing in the morning, however this is what I saw, a capra clinging to the light fixture, this is why I only use 25w bulbs (no possible burn injury) however this socket gets to 135-150f, much more then we expect these lizards to use. In the next photo you can see and better understand why this lizard needed the extra heat, he swallowed a tree frog half as big as him. The need for heat is directly related to digestion, more food more heat and vice versa. Now imagine if this lizard didn’t have access to heat, he ether would have passed on this large meal? Or he would be regurgitating it for not being able to digest it properly.
>>Did I mention they love tree frogs? Enough for me to start a breeding colony.
>>
>>Needles to say when lizards are allowed to optimally metabolise this way, they must be sustained with good foods in quantities, no question about starving them, not even for a day. At this moment I am fine tuning the diet, this is why my temps are at a stand still, I can’t make anymore progress till I know witch foods are digested faster and provides the needed nutrients. An example of this, set two groups exactly the same way, feed one crickets exclusively and the other meal worms exclusively, you will soon realise that the cricket group feeds much more then the mealworms group, crickets are digested faster.
>>Being longer to digest mealworms aren’t a good food for fast metabolising lizards, in this case the lizard will seek lower temps otherwise regurgitation will happen. A lower metabolism leads to less food intake witch leads to slow growth, this is not so bad for growing babies, however it’s terrible for minerals intake and cycling females, more faster digestible foods provide the needed minerals to a female, stuffing her with foods that will slow her metabolism and take forever to digest will disrupt her follicular development, she may still produce eggs, but not as often and these eggs may not be strong, leading to hatch failure or weak babies.
>>
>>I haven’t try the hookworm and hornworms yet, they surely seem to fit the dragons menu.
>>But for this coming year I will focus on crickets, my goal is to get my temps to NTL 75f and a DTL about 90-92f with basking possibilities, at the moment I can not do this because I don’t have the right support. I need to keep a DTL 75f for the slower metabolizing lizards, you may ask what difference those it makes? Well in one case you raise babies to reproductive adults in one year time, in the next it take longer.
>>
>>My friend Ingo thinks I should not post my ideas on this forum, he fears that keepers will try my way and kill there lizards in the process, I don’t disagree with him.
>>You should be careful with your captives and make changes only if you understand the implications.
>>
>>I think the more we know the better, the little bits I am sharing now can lead to big improvements later.
>>
>>
>>Rgds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I find this all very interesting! So interesting in fact that I had decided last night that I would try adding a small watt bulb to the cage and see what happens with it. This morning I picked up a package of Clear Sylvania 25 watt bulbs from my Lowe's in the area. I'm going to see what effects this will have on digestion and overall energy of my trio. I normally keep my house at 78 degrees. The cage is in the basement, which makes temps a few degrees cooler than upstairs. It generally runs about 72 degrees and yesterday I noticed that the dragons weren't as mobile as maybe they should be. So I decided that adding this heat can't hurt. And it may improve their coloration during the day.

I've noticed Jobi that your hatchlings are a nice shade of green, can you attribute this to the added heat? Hopefully this works to speed these guys up a bit, and maybe my little runt will start to gain some size to her!

Anthony

For sure a 25w bulb will do no harm, unless it’s under a screen top, then it’s almost useless.
I like the way Marcia use heat pads on the wall, of course this is impossible for me with the number of cages, I really need to keep a low budget, this is why I make $10 cages and use dollar store bulbs hahaha.

I studied color enhancement with other reptiles many years ago, and it’s pretty simple to understand. Let me start with heat; heat affects color much like the brightness button on your TV, it can make your lizard darker or paler but it doesn’t change the colors, often a lizard that fed a large meal will be lighter or darker because it’s internal temps are high (digestion produces heat)

Next you have light, UVA UVB infrareds or any kind of mix in the spectrum will not affect your lizards natural colors, your lizards look different under different lights simply because scales reflects different light in different ways, hold your lizard outside and you will see it’s colors change as the light spectrum changes, by the way the late afternoon light shows the best colors, and this anywhere around the world. Now you know why they make millions with UV bulbs.

Now the real deal, beta carotene and other components fund in green plants are responsible for coloration, an example zoo flamingos are just white birds when not provided with beta carotene. Sins I am a fan of saving my money, I feed my feeders carrots and dandelions, this provides all the thiamine and beta carotene my lizards need to have nice colors.

Hope this was helpful.

Ah yes, the carrot! That is the best thing, in my opinion, for feeding the feeders! Everyone wants to use the potato but I find that the potato rots and turns black too fast. How can a moldy potato be any good for the feeders and is this what we want to feed our herps? I find that the harder carrots, sweet potatoes and squash keep better and the insects devour them quickly. If they eat them faster then there is less waste. More moisture and nutrients going into the reptiles as a result, right? Of course I also use apples, bananas, and melons, but mostly carrots! ; )
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I started with beardeds so I've always used carrots and squash but also greens. I always had them for the beardies. I assumed it was a good source for calcium. I occasionally put dandelion greens or a collard leaf in with the crickets or roaches. I also have dry cricket and roach food. I do the same for the superworms.