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To Jobi, regarding Environment

theverse Aug 19, 2006 09:50 AM

Jobi,

I've noticed that you have some differant thoughts on this species habitat in captivity, as well as temperatures etc. Now I haven't actually seen a post detailing this information, however, I'm interested in your views. This information will help me grow and learn, and will help me better provide for my animals.

Now Marcia in my eyes in the very first person to give this species it's deserved attention here in the states. With that said, she knows what works and what doesn't(from what I've read etc.)I'm interested in going outside the box. Which is why I've added the extra heat and probably many other changes will come over time.

Can you share with us what humidity levels your using with your captives? Possibly share with us the adults enclosure, maybe dimentions you use? And the feeding schedule your implementing with the adults? And is it much like that of your hatchlings where your feeding often more so than not?

Looking forward to your response.

Anthony

Replies (14)

jobi Aug 19, 2006 11:21 AM

The best thing about humans is that we don’t see things the same way, this spring my wife showed me her first flowers, the first thing I saw was evolution, a snail carrying pollen on its way out (one of numerous ways to reproduce) she on the other hand saw the colors and missing petals but missed this extraordinary exchange.

I have a similar relation with Marcia, we can’t all see the same way, otherwise there would be no progression.

Everything I said about my babies applies to my adults, however I do let the humidity go lower 50%-90% seems to me they drink more when the air is less saturated, I think spraying them actually gives them a false sense of hydration, somehow they must absorb some water by the skin? Not sure I am still working on this.

I like the 24-24-24in cages for adults, they seem to feel secure in them and easily access water and food, a single 25w bulb is all the energy this cage size needs, when you have 50 cages this is real budget. I make cheaper and larger cage with 45gallon plastic drums, but they take a lot more space and are only better for feeding.

theverse Aug 19, 2006 12:34 PM

Very quick response, appreciate it! Very interesting with the adult cages. Everything one reads tells that an adult would need/require at least 48" of climbing room. However, your breeding and that means success with your methods. Great picture by the way!

And I find it interesting that you don't use UVB of any kind, just a small 25 watt bulb. Anyways, thanks again Jobi for posting, this really gets me thinking!

Anthony

jobi Aug 19, 2006 04:05 PM

We herp lovers would all like to keep them in planted green house if we could, however it doesn’t work, at least not with a lot of care.

My priority is that they feed drink and thermo regulate properly, one thing I learned in 30 years of herping, territoriality is space related. The best way to mess up a good breeding pair is to give them more space, then you start seeing all kinds of problems you never experienced before, the first and also the worst is females start doing less of everything feeding drinking and basking because the males start acting more territorial.
Breeding success starts going out the window.

I know that in my cages females nest every 2-3 months, males aren’t territorial and both get all they need to achieve life events.

I can also separate them if needed, smaller cages allows this without to much trouble.
Also between you and me a few empty cages serve very well as incubators.

FroggieB Aug 19, 2006 04:10 PM

Jobi, this has never come up with you in our discussions, so here goes, do you keep your breeders in pairs or groups? Just curious. ; )
-----
Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

jobi Aug 19, 2006 04:18 PM

The females for me are most important, if I see them feeding less or being bullied I take the male out, otherwise I keep them in pairs.

theverse Aug 19, 2006 04:49 PM

Again, I'm really left wanting to research and study these animals more and more in depth. Hmmm, interested in trying out this 24x24x24 idea. Is there a chance you could share how you build the enclosures? I've been using plywood for years, but something tells me there's a better way of constructing that I haven't found yet! You seem like a picture man, any chance you document your step by step process for constructing?

Anthony

jobi Aug 19, 2006 05:33 PM

Actually I did post a step by step with photos, but it got deleted after 2000 hits.
The forum master was also a reptile dealer and store owner, I guess this post made him lose some $$ haha.

Anyway its so simple it hurts
Go to home depot and get;
correlated plastic sheets 1/8 4x8ft $9.99ea
plastic corners 1/2in 8ft $1.20ea
plastic U tracks for glass $3ea
a silicone gun $3
silicone $2.49

and a glue gun (I got mine @ dollar store)
I use discarded glass and been cutting it with the same $4 glass cutter for a decade, if you need guidance for the cutting, let me know.

make a box and frame it with the plastic corners, then seal the interior with silicone.
If its not perfect don’t worry cause you didn’t need to second mortgage your house to build it.
These cages are light, durable, adaptable, but most of all thermal because of the air space between the plastic sheets. This make them very energy efficient, glass is 70% less efficient.

jobi Aug 19, 2006 06:49 PM

.
I use these because they are cheep not for aesthetics

The barrels coast me $3ea ,light socket $0.75, extension cord @ dollar store, the rest is recycle materials.

The correlated plastic cages are about $10-$15ea total, glass is recycle.

theverse Aug 19, 2006 10:25 PM

Very very nice Jobi, I find cheap homemade enclosure extremely neat. And it's another great point that they are energy savers as well. I'm most certainly going to try and construct one of these and see how it comes out.

Do you think plexi glass would work just as well as glass? I'm thinking so, it will be one of my test enclosures.

Yesterday I tried one of the local health food markets looking for dandelion leaves, no such luck. Believe it or not, there aren't any growing near my residence. Immediately I took to finding some, and in no time I had located plenty. The park near my house looked to be a good spot so I went to the west hill and picked several. I removed the roots and washed them off. Feeders seem to be eating them, and I'll make a note now stating that I don't usually collect things from my area. However, I don't mind free, so I like this. I will tell everyone that I'm worried about chemicals being sprayed at the park, but I called around today and it doesn't seem that they would considering it's 106 acres. But believe me, the thought still crosses my mind.

Anyways, this is one of my random thoughts, sorry for the ramble!

Here's a promise, I'll be uploading some photos soon, I hate being lazy.

Anthony

jobi Aug 19, 2006 11:43 PM

Glass or plexi I take whatevers free, makes no difference for the lizards.
If you build such a cage, no need for ventilation, you can drill a few holes on the upper side wall if you like, but servicing your lizards every day assure a complete air exchange, theirs also plenty of air coming in between the sliding glass. You will find these to be the most stable cages you ever worked with, I use them with all species I work with from frogs to varanids to uromastyx, turtles and feeders.

As for dandelions, this is the best food plant that I know, my family and me eat them every day, iv replaced coffee with dandelions roots, try it and see your doctor less frequently, in fact you may forget his name.
The feeders eat everything flower steam leafs and roots, do a little search on this marvellous plant.
My French European ancestors have made dandelion a staple for good reasons.

FroggieB Aug 20, 2006 06:22 PM

I think you may find that the plexi is very expensive, more than glass actually. I would look at tub enclosure or such for the sides & back. I really like the barrel!

I will say that I think the best results I had were in the greenhouse that I used to keep my group in. It is 4" long by 2" wide and 2" tall at the peak. It is glass on all sides. I kept one male and 3-4 females in this at a time and had very productive breeders. Always had 2-3 gravid females every season. So, now I'm wondering if I should go back to this for a bit and see what happens. Perhaps I could put a divider down the center so I have room for 2 pair instead.

So far I have seen no activity with my armata. Do you think that I would see something happen if I were to reduce the viv and put just one female with each of my males? They don't seem to be the same as my capra. There has to be something that will trigger the breeding with these beauties!
-----
Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

jobi Aug 20, 2006 11:19 PM

When I was a teenager, I visited the private collection of what is surly one of Canada’s top herpetoculture pioneers. I was shock to see how small his enclosures was and that most of his specimens where kept single, I remember thinking to myself this is wrong, I will do much better and allow my animals much more room.

The first priority in herpetoculture is food intake, any adaptation witch leads to better feeding is progress. You can play with temps, hydration, space, foods in 1001 ways, but once you hit the nail on the head and your lizards are feeding with appetite, then your on a roll, at this point stop messing with the parameters, now it’s time for inn deep observations and well tot out changes, this is where I am at this moment.

The barrels don’t work good with these dragons, this subtle 14in more in height is enough for males to act territorial, this leads females to feed less and stop cycling.
When trios are kept in these barrels, the Alfa female dominates, she feeds more and do much better then the subordinate female, subordinate animals are passive because they are submitted, this is why you see them as being tame, they are actually in slow death, much like the third chick in the nest. There are reasons why mama let’s him die.
The reality is that I am sacrificing the 3r female for 6 good clutches, amateurs would treat this female for all kinds of worms and such, and animal lovers would put her in an other cage and allow her to get back in shape, then female no2 starts going down hill. Now do you understand why I prefer the small cages?

Hear a photo’s examples I made especially for you tonight, same barrels but different dragons, however same dynamic. Alfa male doing excellent, Alfa female gravid with 4th clutch this year, second female gravid with clutch no2 this year, third female never cycled and slowly dieing. If I take her away then second female will take her place, then if I take second female out first female will be bullied by male. These are the realities of herpetoculture, as much as we would like to, theirs no way to recreate nature. Giving these dragons an entire room will not change this, they have much bigger territories in nature then anything we can offer. Zoo displays are designed for visitors not the animals they hold, large well decorated vivarium's represent the views and taste of the keepers not the kept, I find it funny when peoples critic my plain looking enclosures, and think I am such an amateur, what they fail to see is that the cages are focused on the needs of the species they hold, I adjust my husbandry depending on how well and regular the animals cycle.

jobi Aug 20, 2006 11:24 PM

np

theverse Aug 23, 2006 02:04 PM

Again, thanks guys for the advice, I've made changes accordingly, so far it's working great! My dragons bask often and I've been feeding mainly crickets, I think in a week or so I'll be getting some type of worm to feed. Thanks again!

Anthony

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