Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi:

I recently moved from the CA coast to Davis, CA, where it is much warmer. I set my horned lizards up outside. Their enclosures are in partial sunlight for most of the day, and never full sun. I have always fed them ants and crickets, but they are suddenly refusing both. I caught them a few thousand termites (which in my experience is another Phrynosoma favorite); they ate those once, and are now refusing them as well. I am worried they are losing weight, and they are noticeably lethargic. Any ideas on setting up outdoor enclosures would be greatly appreciated (I have seen the pics on Phrynosoma.org). I use Vision tubs, and have no more than three lizards in each cage (including cages with juveniles). As far as temps go, it has been in the mid-80s to low 90s for the past couple weeks. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

This sometimes happens when a reptile was secure somewhere for a while then gets moved. HL's also sometimes tire of a certain insect that is offered too aboundantly without more variety. I sometimes go through this and have to buy mealworms or catch more moths. They usually move through it after a couple of days and get back to ants and crickets. I try to keep a little of everything around and try new things when I can. I sometimes have similar trouble with the box turtles.

This was also addressed in more detail under the "eating habits" post below.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

well-I may be full of it here, but I would take a temp reading on your cage. The reason I say this is I lost a horned lizard in a big plastic cage many years ago thinking that it was fine, but plastic holds in the heat, if it is not well ventilated you could be getting temps that are too high. They do need good ventilation to stay healthy. If these are wild caught they may be having an issue with intestinal bugs, but they just could be stressing as Fireside was implying below. It's hard to say but the change has affected them, but I am concerned at the wieght loss and refusing food. Check those temps out don't assume they are fine, the ambient temps could be a lot higher than you relize..........Be sure and feed your animals in the morning not in the middle of the day. have you also tried any danilion flowers or a litle green leaf lettuce cut up very thin. Try a flying insect such as moths or even a small grass-hopper...hope you figure it out. Be sure and do somethng quickly as they can go down the tuber real quick. Are you making sure they are hydrated well?
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I will check the temperatures tomorrow. The cages are low-lying, with large gauge screen covers, so I did not anticipate this being a problem. However, it could be something like this. As far as food goes, I will try to get some moths this evening and offer them in the morning, and I am expecting more crickets tomorrow. Could it be that overnight temperatures are too low? I believe it was 59F last night. Anyhow, thanks for the help and let me know if you have any other ideas...

I'd be willing to bet they are getting ready to go down. Most adults in the wild are nearing this, and it's probably much warmer in their native habitat that in Davis. If they have reasonable weight you might just hold off trying too hard to make them eat and see what they do. If you plan to hibernate outside be sure their cages won't flood this winter. But there should be some moisture in the sand so they don't dehydrate.
Do you have any pics?
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Phrynosoma.Com

While horned lizards can go down soon, my experience with coastals is they didn't go down at least for another month. I agree with you the change in temps has affected their feeding probably, also the range in temps on the coast is a lot more close in hioghs and lows than in the mountians of valley where Davis is located. My colony of HL's were outside in the long beach area and in good years were out until September. But as you say temps can affect behavior big time...and I think this is the issue. Certianly 59 is cool........
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Phrynosoma.org

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o.k. 59 is cool, if the temps at night have been that cool but heating up into the 80's that might possibly be an issue. That might be a change from their original coastal night temps? If the cage is not too hot during the day, that did haapen to me and is worth checking, then the other end is to put a bulb (red or dark blue) bulb at night to keep the temps up in the cage. At some point soon these lizards will go down for the winter, but usually mine would not hit the dirt until early october and eat like pigs until they got a lot of body wieght. Certianly something has transpired that has changes their normal activity, I think 59 is cool, maybe some others might chime in on that as well. 70degrees would be better at night. The change in temps being drastic from cool to hot during the day may have been part of the issue........ Don't for get a 85 degree day can have 100 degree ground temps. While most of the time hornbed lizards need the higher ground temps before they feed but 90 can be hot enough to radiate a lot of high ambient temps of the substrate and make it uncomfortable without shade, which you did say you had shade, but check this all out....Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

At 10 AM, the cages were still 75F in the shade, but had reached 103 in the open sunlight... I will post more temps as the day wears on.

Thanks!

Sounds like you guys go it figured out. "Where" you recently moved to is an important thing to know too.

While it doesn't seem to be in question here, Repto brought up a good point on plastic containers. They, and aquariums, are dangerous things to keep your reptiles in outside for anyone else reading. It gets much, much hotter in such covered & confined spaces.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I checked the temperature throughout the rest of the day, and it did approach 115F on the hot side, but stayed below 85F in the shade. Is this too warm? I brought the lizards inside tonight, as I am concerned the overnight lows are more of an issue than the daytime heat... I am at a loss. I thought the Phrynos would do really well outside in this warmer climate. Unfortunately, I am kind of limited to the plastic bins, as my yard is landscaped (I doubt my lanlord would take kindly to me ripping up the lawn and surrounding roses to put in semi-permanent outdoor enclosures)... Maybe I should just move my lizards in for the rest of the season, and re-think the outdoor enclosure design...

Thanks again!

Normally around 105 and top end 110 degrees, I am sure in nature they are on ground hotter, but I think you shold consider taking them into the garage set up daytime lighting tomeet normal specifications with am ambiebt temp of 85-90 degrees and then also leave a small dark blue light on at night so it takes any chill off the cage and see if they don't come back and eat better. It may take a day or so for them to adjust. I assume you have UVB for your animals? Are you using home depot sand for substrate or equivelant? ALso be sure the light intensity in the cage is good. If it's not real bright, use a regular incandescent 60 wat bulb if this is a large cage or even a second one if necessary as light intensity is very important but be considerate of the heat range as well, to desert lizards and just having heat is not enough, you also need light.........Cheers.
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Phrynosoma.org

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Yeah, that's pretty close to fatal temperature. Especially if these are smaller plastic bins. I too lost a HL due to heat stress in a plastic storage bin. And it only took 20 minutes or so to kill him. I put him in there with some sand and a cave hide while I was doing maintenance on his cage. I figured I would be done and have him back in his cage before it was a concern. It was only in the 80's that day, but in the bin it got much hotter real fast. I had that HL 3 years and it took a few minutes in the wrong environment to kill him. I'm still so pissed at myself about that I can hardly talk about it.

You don't have to tear up the yard to make a decent outdoor cage. And it doesn't have to be a huge fixed habitat either. Though that's great too. I just get some 1x2"s or 1x4"s, some wire mesh, and hinges, and make an open air outdoor terrarium that's larger than an aquarium, but still moveable. You can make a decent size one in less than an hour, for less than $20 in materials.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

As an alternative to everything people do for enclosure, if you live in the country or by a country store that carries water tanks for animals etc. You can buy a bottomless stock tank off the internet that is made of heavy gauge galv. and is many different sizes, but the 6 ft x 28 inch high stock tank is excellent, Then sink it slightly in the dirt about 4 inches or so and fill the center with your substrate plants and what ever and put p-gravel around the inside edge of the stock tank. They can never get out, the metal sides are far enough away from center not to be a heat issue, if you take 1/2 piece of plywood and sink it in the ground at a slight angle with large rocks under it so it's like a deep cave and then put substrate and plants over it the animal can go down deep to hide or lay eggs or whatever. You make a 2 x 4 stud top for it with 1/4 inch wire to keep out the critters and you got one heck of a nice outside containment center and this will not look bad with the landscapinbg either. Check out bottomless stock tanks on the internet.........Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]