Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And moderators can delete it,if they like, but I need to call it like it is.Been a member of many forums,prospecting metal detecting,etc.I will not get into a confrontation on the net.But, this site is a hard site to be a member of.
I absolutely know that some here have a passion for these lizards,care about there well being,their future.
And, I see some post here, for instance. AAhh, I found this lizard, I think its a horned toad , ummm, it has four legs, and um its brown.
Ok , now I can see it coming.

BAM, the poor "kid" usually gets hammered, Where did you get him, do you even know what kinda lizard ya got, Your going to kill it for gods sake man, let it goo. or
We need a pict, is that legal, endangered, it better not be a macalli,you better notify the proper agencies!!!!!, NO better yet , I will, contact me Immediately!!!!
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSShhh
Or, Just because their bellys are dragging on the sand, does not mean their healthy, "harvester anttttttts man, for gods sakes."
BAM.( I can see Cable smiling)I have looked back a ways on here,and on the "new" site,hmmm for such cute lizards, not many members,is it because they are so hard to keep,or , well I leave it with you!!scott.

Actually I was chuckling a bit sir. LOL
I have to agree for the most part.
Obviously I have somewhat of a passion for HL's and their care, but it seems these lizards bring out more than a passion in many folks. Hobbyists can mame and mistreat just about any other species without too much outcry, but mishandle and HL and you are public enemy #1.
They are going to be captured, and in some cases they will die. That will likely never change. A helpful attitude might go a lot further in helping out the lizards. But to each his own.
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Phrynosoma.Com

While you may have the idea this forum is for a few, it is meant for the many including yourself. I am not at all insulted by your perspective, and your intitled to your opinion. When reporting issues in the paper or for that matter any article a balanced approach is always the most plattible to the radership, however sometimes we all could afford to be shaken up and none of us above making a mistake or possibly going at some one from what you consider an untinable position.

Can I ask you how many horned lizards you have been involved with, if you are aware of our site the mission statement is clear, and the experience of some but not all is form years of study, and keeping captive animals and maintaining relative health and well being. Becuase these lizards are exactly as you say--so easy to end up in anyones hands from where ever they may come from, educating people about their natural history I believe to be in the reptiles best interest and the interest of all parties. I don't believe in hitting anyone over the head with a bat. MOst of the time you'll see PHrynosoma.com after a post that is usually one of us from the site. So I can not take responsibility for any one elses response, because again this is an open forum for all and not just some elite group. Some people have a different bedside maner than others, but frankly with rariety is anyone approaching the issues with venom for the pure pleasure of causing a rucuss. However I have seen it and admit that happens, and I have had people read my stuff and accuse me of the same, but compared to the hundreds of e-mails I have recieved and thank yous, I think maybe I might be hitting a balanced approach, or at least I hope so. I know what is to quelch a childs interest, I have seen it before and it certianly isn't good. But I also know that many of the animals "picked up" at a park or wilderness often end up doomed to a slow and aganizing death because of a lack of commitment and understanding. So these as a general rule are not for novices, and while everyone starts somewhere, we hoped that Phrynosoma.com would be that starting point to learn and work with each other and the community at large in developing natural history informnation on all the different species. So you have your opinion, I understand it, I have seen exactly what you say, and I am not insulted because this is something that I have rarely ever practiced.Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I had a HL when I was 14ish, and am 50 now.I remember the interest that it held in me, how unique it was.I/we have two now,josh and I.Part of the reason to get ours now was to help my son understand responsibility, and to appreciate what they are, as I did years ago.I meant No insult to anyone.I have seen the Site that Je and others have put into that site,what a work of art, its awsome.I looked at a LOT of posts on here and other sites as well before we got ours.We had our setup ready,checked into everything they needed,temps, food,lights,supplements, what was the best low traffic area,etccc.I do enjoy coming to this site.I use the classifieds to an extent.But, when I look back on the old posts, I don't see that many different members(repeats),and granted some come and then poof they are gone,like a lot of sites.When I see a post, and its um like they are a little uncertain, I wince,like oh man hes going to get it now.The Info here is the best,guys like fireside,les, Cable,repto,etc are examples of what make this site what it is, and its nice to have some qualified people to "ask" questions.Have they made a difference in how people understand what they are getting into , absolutely, and without a doubt have saved hundreds of HL's in the process.One thing I try to remember is "if someones asking a question, they are vulnerable".If you act like their an idiot or it's a stupid question,"they won't come back".I think that is the last thing anyone wants here.So if the answers/comebacks could be tempered some,it might make it more,palatable/pleasant?Some guys I work with say,"what are you going to do if your HL's have babies",I like to tell them,Well I know a couple of guys from this site, and it would be great to ship them to them and say,Hey, can you find a place somewhere near you thats acceptable and give something back,and thanks.scott.

Well said Lou and FireSide.

I have to agree still with the premise of the original post. I have had more than a few folks email me directly because of the sometimes caustic or accusative responses posted here, and I know I am not alone.

One thing to consider in framing a response; if folks in general are disinclined to post questions here because of the potential tone of a response then truth does not have a chance to be served and HL issues are not resolved. People are people and a polite response to me is always required.

That said, it is still to each his own. Whatever the tone, there is good information from most people who post answers here. I don't agree with everything everyone says, but this is largely due to differences in personal experiences. There is still a lot to learn about HL husbandry.

For me it's all good (mostly)
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Phrynosoma.Com

In my opinion too many people these days feel a sense of entitlement or right to not be spoken to in any direct manner that may offend them or hurt their feelings. And many more are timid toward any possible confrontations, choosing to sugar coat when a more honest and direct approach of the future that is a more likely scenario with Horned Lizards in unskilled hands is called for. These two dichotomies often lead to a situation where direct and honest truth of the facts are lost. The person asking the question is often mislead about their chances or what they should do.

I have worked in, or studied as a hobby in, many fields which require precision and directness, especially in definition and word choice. These fields include law enforcement, communication electronics, herpetology, general aviation/aerodynamics, and criminal/constitutional law. I choose words carefully. To make sure the facts of a situation are understood uniformity of definition ( understanding of words used by another and the reson for them ) is required. This also often requires directness in approach and critical thought toward anothers certain position. There is nothing personal in it. Much like the adversarial debates between lawyers, scientists, philosophers, or the like.

But, sadly, many people these days do not have the ability to think or read critically this way without being offended at recitation of simple facts, personal observations, or opinions of others. Especially the opinions of the more versed. It always amazes me in what plain and direct facts that some people will find offense. Even where obviously no words have been dispatched to harm them. They simply are offended that you would dare offer up to them such a plain truth and make them feel like they needed to study about something. It's not right to do anymore in this culture.

Maybe I'm a throwback to another day. I certainly enjoy the direct truthful observations offered by Thomas Paine and Mark Twain. In many other fields, some take comfort in knowing they don't have to confront certain things. They know I will. I am much more concerned for the life of the lizard than I am about your feelings. Those are just the plain facts. Words were meant for use and the fault lies with deserving them. You may mistake this for passion or even something more than plain clinical critical evaluation. But you might be wrong. My only true passion is objective logic. I make no apologies for my style and I won't shy from it simply because Horned Lizards are going to continue to be gathered up and die anyway. You take my information for what it is worth to you given what you know of me, and I will do the same. If you disagree on any factual grounds, I'd love to hear from you and debate the merits for the sake of academics and evolution of knowledge.

With me it's never personal unless you want to make it personal.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I will admit that I would not describe myself as a particularly social person. Perhaps my lack of small talk skills and getting right to the point about things lends itself to being misinterpreted as maliciousness instead of directness and honesty. But this is not exactly a "full-duplex" back and forth talk. Anyone who talks to me one on one gets my meaning much better. I've often thought that's the reason I am drawn to reptiles. For the inherent simple logic that comes from their design and instincts. They are efficient and do what is in their best interest, never wasting their efforts on illogical pursuits...doing what is unnecessary.
I certainly don't mean to be a "meanie". I'm much more concerned that someone has the skill than I am whether they have a permit to have that HL. I'll let them know the legalities and other issues anyway, but that doesn't mean I won't help. I just think strongly that they should be responsible and informed beforehand. I'll discourage keeping whenever I think someone doesn't have the skill or the time to get the skill. Truth is, those people shouldn't keep, and that needs to be said. But I never refuse help. I may just be a little more "honest" and "encourage" them a little more than some. Some people are put off because I'll do things like say "cornutum" instead of Texas HL to them. Or use other words they don't know yet. This is because I know if they're serious, they'll do some "google" on their own and be forced to learn something...not relying on people on a forum to walk them through every little thing when they have a question. This is what people did to me.

You'll always get the bad news truth from me, but if you can get over being initially offended by it, it will probably help you.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246