Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read your care sheet and you have me worried. One of my dhl's I have had for 4 months. I am not sure if he was wild caught. The other 2, I have had for 2 months and they were wild caught, but the seller said they were checked for parasites. I have the husbandry right and lighting. I feed them mainly red harvester ants. If they are diseased, how long do they live in captivity? I have bearded dragons and a leopard gecko. I know they are not the same. I am just saying I have experience with lizards. One of my bearded dragons was not expected to live because it was born with one eye. I got her when she was a week old, and now she is 14 months old. The owner did not think she would live long and told me if I wanted her at no cost, I could have her.

Well, as you see, expectations are sometimes hard to guess. A lizard could live in captivity on one eye if it was treated properly.

As far as HL's goes...the presence of nematode or other parasites does not necessarily mean death. Almost all HL's in the wild you can be for sure have nematodes. They infest the harvester ant as well as part of their life cycle. This is why I treat my HL's with Panacur at least twice a year, and all new arrivals, upon arrival.

It's not clear how much these parasites can shorten the life of a HL, or how many it takes to be fatal. But they can cause problems like an impaction and maybe even infections or some other disease. I also think it's fair to say that it's not a good thing to have hundreds of these things attached to the stomach walls and intestines of your HL....sucking the nutrients out of him.

I think these nematodes might have played a part in the deaths of 2 of my juvenile solare. They appeared to have the exact symptoms of an intestinal enteritis. Maybe bacterial or viral. I'm not sure. Treatment of the first with acidified water and tetracycline seemed to have outstanding results. I had her on a feeding tube early in the ordeal. She had marked improvement over 2 weeks and was about to be out, back into general population. The she died suddenly. Despite immediate quarantine, the smaller one died shortly after, within 1 day of showing symptoms. A necropsy on her revealed several dozen nematodes in her digestive system, some causing possible blockage and a discolored area of the lower intestines. She was rather small to begin with.

The nematodes could have contributed to their deaths by allowing them to be susceptible to an enteritis causing bacteria or virus. This is the likely reason they both died within a short time of each other. The spread of the infection. I now treat all with Panacur before hibernation, and after hibernation without exception. When they eat harvester ants, they will get nematodes again. I just try to keep it manageable for them.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Thanks for getting back to me. Where can I buy Panacur? Does it come with instructions on dosage and how to give it to them?

You can get Panacur at most vet offices, or usually cheaper at a feed store. Many places will sell it by the ounce which is plenty for a while. It varies. I've bought it at a feed store for about $4 and ounce, and the next time at a vet...who wanted $12.
It also goes by the name brand of "Safe-Guard" or the drug name fenbendazole. Get the liquid form, not the paste or solid. If you can't find it, I can get you some.
I believe I cover the dosage, etc. in that care sheet. But it's a standard dose of 50-100mg per Kg of body weight. I mostly use 100mg figures because I have gotten better results at killing nematodes, but you may wish to go with 50mg/Kg at first try.
Rougly, you will need an accurate scale to weigh the HL to the nearest 10 grams. Take that figure and divide by 1000 to compensate for Kg's. This figure would be your 100mg/Kg dosage.

Example: a 50gram lizard, divide by 1000=.05cc/ml ( 100mg/Kg dose ). Half that for 50mg/Kg dosage=.025. Another way to put it is that each 10 grams of body weight equals about .005cc/ml of Panacur ( 50mg/Kg ) or .01cc.ml ( @ 100mg/Kg ).

You will need a 1cc/ml syringe for this, that is marked down to the .01cc/ml. You can also get those at most vets. It's about the size of an insulin syringe. Each smallest hash mark would be .01cc. The large bold marks are numbered; .1cc, .2, .3, etc up to 1.0cc/ml. So you would be giving either 2 1/2 or 5 small hash marks, depending. I always use a little more because the HL will often spit some out. It's a very small dose and amounts to a small drop really.

The hard part is that you have to get the HL's mouth open and put in the syringe, making sure not to choke it on the medicine by giving it too fast. It is also easy to slip and give too much once you get started, so only put a little more than you need in the syringe. Shake it well beforehand. I start by putting the syringe in my mouth tip out. Then I hold the HL's head with 1 hand and gently pry it's lower jaw open with a thin strip of plastic, like a keychain Petco card. Once I get it's mouth open far enough, I guide the syringe in using my mouth. It will then bite down on it when you pull the plastic card away. Works better with 2 people. Give your dose and watch the HL eyeball you with hatred as he smacks and sticks his tongue out. You might be kind and follow by offering him a drink!
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I can get mine to drink by dropping a few drops on them,sorta like it was rain.Then a drop on the head,after that they just drink from the eyedropper.It seems to work great.Can't you do this instead of prying open the mouth?Your experienced some at doing this, just concerned about someone new trying to open their mouth, which I have heard is not a good thing.Just curious, scott

Typically this medicine is a little too thick to go down their nostrils, or they would just force it out.

If you mean offering them a drink to get them to smack and open the mouth...you could try. But in my experience when you approach them with something they're going to clam up. It's worth a try to see if you can get a credit card or something in there, but the timing would have to be right on...or your back to my idea, cause they probably ain't gonna open their mouth again for a while if you miss.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Well, like i said when I drip a little water on them, they initially clam up, but give them a few or so.When they start smacking there mouth, I can usually get them to drink at least two or three eyedroppers, they love the water, of course,its pedialyte, so maybe it tastes better.But they drink a lot of it, i give it to them several times a week.A drop on there head or snout gets them going every time.I see them breathing through the nostril, but drinking through there nose wasn't what i meant, scott

Yes, I know about the drop on the snout trick. But they can and do drink through their nostrils.

Talk about altering chemical composition here. Pedialyte is something that I give to sick reptiles, when necessary. It should not be given as a water source.

Those types of things contain too much sugar, etc.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I have a couple of thoughts to throw out on this. I think it was Lester that said it a while back. Parasites are a natural part of an HL's life. A healthy HL can shake off the effects and usually pass these pests. When you start adding chemicals to the mix you mess up an HL's natural chemical balance. I'm not necessarily saying never treat them. But I would consider it a last resort.
Lou also offered up a more natural way to administer medicine than by prying their mouths open. I never like doing this and have only trid it once. HL's mouths are fairly fragile compared to most lizards. Something hard like a credit card can easily damage their teeth, which are very small.

One last thought. Some HL's are not going to make it. This is true of both captive and wild HL's. I had a platyrhinos pass away a couple of weeks ago. It was just over two years old. I raised it from a hatchling and it never was quite right. It was a weakling. Couldn't run well and was just always a little quirky. In the wild it probably wouldn't have made it through it's first summer. HL's can die for a number of reasons, which don't always reflect on poor husbandry. To artificially prolong their lives by extravegant means only ensures that the weak survive and pass on bad genes. An early death is natures way of ensuring the survival of the species. My point here is not to perpetuate poor husbandry by any means. But I do feel there is a time to draw the line and let nature take its course. It may seem a little callous, but in the end I believe it is best for the species as a whole.
It takes some experience to know the difference between poor husbandry and just natural causes when it comes to the loss of an HL. I don't know that it's anything that you can understand simply by reading alot.
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Phrynosoma.Com

I didn't say "credit card" to pry open the mouth. I believe I said use that or something similar to "place" in there as it's opening and closing it's mouth...per the scenario offered by outdoorsman, that I didn't really see as viable anyway.

When offering advice on the "prying open" of the mouth; I said like a "Petco keychain card". Again...I am very precise with the word selection. I gave this type of card as an example because it is much thinner than a credit card and flexes quite a bit. It gives where a "credit card" would not. Therefore, the reason I specifically did not say "credit card" to "pry open" any "mouth". Another example of why my posts should not be comprehended to include meanings other than those given by it's specific terms. I do not speak in abstractions nor use a few words to loosely mean everything similar, as women sometimes do.

While I respect Lester's opinions, and his experience, I do not always agree. I would say most of the time I do agree with him, but his positions have sometimes contravened those of other known HL researchers or herpetologists. In fairness, I say that I don't recall that this has happened often. Nevertheless, anything said by Lester is probably best left said by Lester to avoid anything being taken out of context.

The treatment of parasites with Panacur is a long time established safe protocol for reptiles. It is very safe and very hard to overdose with. Even double the recommended dosage in many cases results in no ill effects. Some advocate the even more effective Ivermectin with some reptiles. But since this drug is known to be fatal to some herps and you must consult a chart to find out which, I stay away from it.

With respect to your mention of Lester's proported comments; I would agree for the most part with the underlying logic of that arguement. No more should be fooled with than necessary. However these lizards are not in the wild. There are many different aspects of these lizards which are being interfered with simply because they are in captivity. To observe them in captivity, is to change them. Their chemical and other health issues are affected by going to less space, to more stress, to different diet, to artificially generated UV light, etc, etc, etc. Such effects could quite conceivably lead to a higher rate of parasitic infestation, and reduction in the captive HL's ability to mitigate such infestations, I should think.

I also disagree that a healthy HL could just "shake off" these parasites. The nature of the nematode is to stay within the host, attached to the walls of the digestive system, until it's purpose is served and the life cycle can be completed through the ingestion of nematode eggs by the harvester ant. That is how they are designed. It is known that hundreds, or thousands of these parasites sometimes infest a HL. If they can be "shake[n] off" in any significant numbers by the HL, I would like to hear some evidence of that...even if it's anecdotal evidence.

Does this mean I advocate more interference only because it is already being done? NO. Not without good merit and evidence do I advocate such things. But it does mean that some other less natural methods are necessary in captivity to employ; in order to counter, mitigate, or complement certain effects that are already taking place as a consequence of captivity. In the case of snakes; we often must force feed them in order to get them to begin eating. Sometimes can go on for quite a while. In the case of turtles; we often must treat for shell rot and predator/house pet related carapace damage. In many reptiles, the treatment of external parasites, such as mites, is called for, or assistance with shedding. In the case of the first two examples; these are situations that can lead to fatalities fairly quickly if there is no intervention. In the case of the latter two; these can lead to infection/disease and a poor health condition that may lead to eventual death. In your arguement, however, would you have us not interfere in such manners to save the lives of these captive animals or improve their quality of life, simply because they would not have such assistance in nature? The weak being culled out so to speak? Would the screwing, wiring, and epoxying of a turtle's shell back together be considered "extravagant"?

"Extravagant means" is quite a matter of subjectivity when keeping a wild animal in captivity, wouldn't you say?
I could make the case that a ZooMed UV light, or using the refrigerator to manipulate ants for Horned Lizard consumption is "extravagant" means. I could also make the case that failure to treat certain conditions, that are not only long accepted reptile veterinary practice...but that are easily and safely treated...could amount to "negligent keeping" or "abuse".

Keeping in captivity something that is wild necessitates doing some un-natural things to it. Sometimes this can prolong the life of the animal. Sometimes it is merely to improve it's quality of life and make things less rough and more comfortable than it would have in nature. Many times interventions and un-natural things are necessary if you want the animal to survive captivity at all. Without which, some animals would just be better left in the wild to begin with.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

To each his own Fireside. I respect your precise communication, but if I choose to be less dedicated to the study of your posts I hope you'll forgive. I've been keeping solare for over 3 years now and have lost only one (excluding some young hatchling fatalities) which died after laying eggs. This was due to some kind of physical trauma which caused a paralysis during the egg laying process.
I have seen on rare occasion a pin worm excreted in stool. There are several types of worms that might infest an HL host. The most common is not the type that would attach on a permanent basis. The life cycle of this pin worm depends on being eaten by ants after being expelled by the HL, so that it's eggs are then passed to the lizard again through the ants. A clean habitat can reduce the recurrence, but ants from the wild (basically all the ants we feed our HL's) are potential carriers of new eggs, so this is a recurring issue for most HL's over their lifetime.
I am curious what your experience has been either with or without the medications in the various HL's you keep?

I'm all for study of effects and I agree with Lou that this should be explored. But I don't necessarily agree that it should be thrown out on this forum for the inexperienced to try. I have talked with vets who handle reptiles and they are nervous to treat HL's. Also, HL's have somewhat delicate mouths, and prying them open by any means certainly adds considerably to the stress of the lizard. I respect Lou and his long years of experience in treating lizards. If he says he has had success with treating HL's then I consider it valuable information. Again, his method is less stressful or likely to cause damage.

I think it would be very beneficial for Lester and others to provide some insight. Lester, I know you have many years of experience with HL's directly. Care to comment?
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Phrynosoma.Com

I will forgive that you may be less dedicated to the study of my posts. But if you are less dedicated to quoting me accurately, I will correct you.

Many of these worms are not seen excreted in stool very often. Either due to remaining in the host for longer, or because they are hard to spot unless closely examining stool all the time. Therefore I think many people are mislead about the presence of parasites in their animal.

I am aware that parasitic infestation can come in forms other than nematodes, however, it is precisely because nematodes attach and remain that I addressed them. It is also because they are also common to Horned Lizards and Harvester ants and have been addressed more frequently by the various Horned Lizard authorities than any other parasite.

I didn't throw this out for the inexperienced to try Cable. Had you in fact done due diligence to study my posts, I think you would find that I have always given that caveat. Never recommending that the inexperienced try it, and to seek an experienced herp keeper or reptile vet if they were not.

I merely responded to treerich's question about information in my care sheet. That did not mean that I advocate him or everyone out there try it at home if they have no experience.

I have been to reptile vets. Yes, they are nervous about treating HL's. They are mostly scared of any liability, or are unsure of their status because with most people it pops-up as a "no no" item. The one's I have seen or talked to knew less about HL's than I did.

I agree that Lou is on to something, if I can get an accurate measured dose from the paste.

I can only offer anecdotal evidence myself as it relates to my experience with HL's. I would say it has had beneficial results with those treated. Perhaps I can come up with something more in depth about those results soon.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246