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I see most people feed harvester ants to their HL but what about the HL species that live where there are no harvester ants? like the ones from high elevations in Idaho? What other species of ants can I feed? There are lots of different kinds here (Idaho panhandle)can I feed them instead?

Sdduming first that these are legal to collect in your state, as we do support legal co;llection, I would check the scat of the horned lizard and youshould be able to identify the ant specie. When observing the short-horns in New ZMexico I found that those around Rioduso eat exclusively black medium sized ants that we found around wood that was rotted, buty I don't believe they were termites, they were some specie of ant. Plus they ate small grassuoppers as well.. You still might try a carpenter anmt and see if it works. Obviously if you are to eb committed to the raising of this lizard you'll need to get a supply of ants whether localized or out of the area.Cheers!!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I found out today that they were collected from the Sierra Nevada Mountains, they have been in captivity for around three month and were fed NO ants that entire time. I tried suger ants today but they wouldn't take them, I will get some of the bigger black ants tomorrow.

Lets see if I can spell better this time, LOL!!
First of all these Lizards need ants but they eat other insects, so for the sake of feeding and keeping them up on something, try 1/4 crickets, and some wax worms. In the meantime might order some ants from Life West and see if they will eat them. If you going fo ants are you sure the ants you talked about live there? I mean the black ants I talked about were in the mountians in New Mexico that doesn't mean your going to have these there or even black ants unless you've seen them before? What you need to do is find out what ants are indiginous to that area. I also think that you need to check the temps in the cage? These animals don't need high heat, like 90 on the hot side would be adequate. I assume you have UVB bulb? What size cage do you have it in? Are you spraying water on the rocks and is it going to the water and lapping up the water? I hope so because hydration is important in these animals as they live at higher altitudes where it is cooler, and don't mind a little more moisture. Can you post a picture of your animal on the web? Would like to see what it looks like.Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

If you do get black ants , bigger ones, then put them in the refrigerator for 15 minutes so they cool down and slow down, and just put in a few at a time, don't overwhelm them. Also my inclination is that in highter elevations these lizards hibernate earlier, so unless the temps are up these animals will shortly in a month or so be going down for the count, so maybe it's important you get them feeding regularly and eating well. I want to see a pictire so we can judge their health as far as how much meat they have on those bones.......Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I live in michigan,was told here that some ants that people have fed their HL's killed them.I feed my HL's several local ants here and try to stick with mostly the larger black ones.The carpenter ants here are large, as big as the harvesters and some are a little larger.I noticed that the HL's hesitate some if the ant is to large.I prefer to feed them the black ants here.Might order a few(harvesters) and mix them in with occasional crickets(winter), and I am also raising Roaches for them.They really go crazy when I throw in a roach, seems like they like the roaches better than anything.Also when they slow down on the ants some, i just give them a slight variation with a few crickets or roach.The roaches are really easy to keep and raise and its fun also.I really wonder if ants here in michigan and elsewhere also have the formic acid they need.Some of the ants here have a volatile smell,which i wonder, is it acid? scott

There are a lot of ants species here. I've seen carpenter ants, they are big close to 1" and then there is a smaller black kind, around 1/2". We also have a black and red ant that make large mounds, I don't know what they are, we call them forest ants. I'll do some research and find out what we have here. My aunt keeps HL and I have seen her feed the smaller black ones and the black & red ones with no adverse effects.

I've been feeding mine small crickets and lobster roaches. Right now mine are in a 20 gallon long tank, I know it should be bigger but its all I have now. They do have UVB and I'll double check they temps today.
A sandy substrate, a pile of rocks and water dish. I've been misting them daily, they all move to the highest rock when I do, stand real tall and wag their tails.

The male and smaller female are a little thin but they are starting to eat better. I want to get them nice and plump before they go down for the winter.

Ok, the most common type of ant around here belongs to the formica family, they make formic acid so I suppose they will do
There is an abundence of ant hills in the surrounding mountains.

http://www.myrmecos.net/formicinae/rufa.html

The "volatile" smell you describe is exactly what I am referring to. Ants of Dolichoderinae produce these pheremones. Many of these ants are probably more common in the eastern US. I'm not as well versed in entomology, but in the last few years I have learned to learn something about insects too. Something that has a smell, especially a "volatile" smell, is something to stay away from.

In the case of the lawn ant Iridomyrmex pruinosus, the alarm pheremone is 2-heptanone; which is made up of 49 ketones and 35 nonketone chemicals. It is these ants which Richard Montanucci fed to several of his HL's, which killed many of them.

I am not quite so versed as Richard Montanucci...nor do I consider myself very proficient in the study of ants just yet. But, I do have common sense and some experience with reptiles. That tells me that many ants and other insects, which are not known common prey items to HL's, could be potentially deadly.

If Richard Montanucci can make such a mistake, then I'm going to play it safe with insect identification and not give a HL anything that is in question. Especially if that species of insect does not naturally reside in his native territory.

It would, therefore, be adviseable that novices to Horned Lizards or entomology should be less cavalier than they usually are.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246