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Continuation on Parasites

reptoman Sep 03, 2006 10:45 PM

I know for a fact that zoo's when they take in a wild caught animal will treat them with various meds after doing a fecal. The animals are isolated and are not included into the collection until after 4 clear fecals. If an animal has parasites or other intestinal issues, I am very sure that changes in husbandry will affect them. I am working with Fringe-toed sand lizards and have had a heck of a time with these because wild caught animals are heavily paratiszed. So as a general rule I have often found that if my Hl starts loosing wieght and gets droppy eyes and doesn't eat or just the opposite keeps eating for some time but continues to loose wieght, I don' think the panacur is a bad consideration although not being a vet there are obviously a host of other possibilities. If you use panacur paste you can put a dab on a cricket and the Hl's will eat the criket. I do several crikets depending on the size and wieght of the animal and do it once then 10 days late again - I know other people who use parazap? Anyway this whole field needs to be exp;ored more by our vet people who are majoring in that field, I understand some protozoas have not been identified, it would be interesting to get into the micro-flora of some of our desert lizards........
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Replies (15)

reptoman Sep 03, 2006 10:54 PM

Also as a side note--I didn't read all the posts until after I posted, some people do use the liquid panacur, but my vet uses the paste on just most of his animnals and believes this to be the best way to administer panacur with as little stress as possible. This can be purchased over the counter in any equine center or farm supply house that carries meds for farm animals and hoses. The paste can be fed to vegetarians as well as insect eaters with little or no stress affect, so while I know many that use liquid and I am not klnockig it, I have done several differnt types of desert lizards and believe this to be the best consideration when dealing with this issue. Just my opinion, and not run afoul of anybody elses opinion here........
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

fireside3 Sep 03, 2006 11:30 PM

Hey no, that's great Lou. I think you brought up some good points. The reason I don't deal with the paste is because it's kinda hard to measure a dose that way. Guess I could try to suck it up into a little syringe, but the liquid has been pretty easy for me so far. Being able to pry open the mouth is a good thing to know how to do anyway. I do that when looking at different or new reptiles. In some, tongue color can help aid in sexing, as well as give you an indication of their health.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

reptoman Sep 04, 2006 08:01 AM

I have no problem with someone knowing how to handle their animal, including opening thier mouth, I usually try and rub along the side of the mouth and they will often open the mouth, but the less the better. As you stated with panacur you can be in the ball park and not hurt the animal - if you look at a syringe you can estimate the amount to adminsiter, and that usually is two crickets laced or so. Even if you do some one day and wait a day or so and do it again. It does seem to work well with most lizard species, I have not used other meds for intestinal issues, but I suspect if I use liquid flagel I will probably inject this in a king mealworm or cricket and see if I can get the animal to eat it. A little piece of bread injected with a med and wrapped in some lettuce or veggie will work for chucks and other omniverious or vegetarian animals. Because the doses are small, most of the time they will down the hidden meds without impunity, where as I have had them spit out meds administered with a syring to an open mouth, you got to get it down in there....anyway I think we should continue to come up with new ways to treat our animals. Cheers! Last of all since I am not a vet or anywhere close has anyone done any reading on collidal silver for infection in animls? Anyone know about this stuff. JUst curious. When you look at the side effects of baytril, which worrks well most of the time in reptiles it would be good to find a better alternative, of which I am sure their must be but this does seem to be the most accepted protocol for infected feet or what ever........Cheers!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

onthefly Sep 04, 2006 10:59 PM

I have found that the Panacur (Fenbendazole) or the Safe Gaurd having the same drug, using the powder for dogs and cats has a 22% drug content, the paste having a 10%, I powder one or two crickets for three streight days and then again in two weeks works very well, match the cricket size to the Lizard size for the dosage
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1.1 Bearded Dragon (Drago,???)
1.1 Desert Iguana(Dima, Dianne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Igor)
2.3.5 Collared Lizard (Fred, Wilma, Betty,???)
1.1 Desert Leopard Lizard (Simba, Kimba)
0.1 Hamster (Tofu)
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

Cable_Hogue Sep 05, 2006 05:08 AM

Hi OTF,
Can you share the results have you observed in your HL's from treatment, both short and long term?
Also, anyone else?
Thanks!
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Phrynosoma.Com

fireside3 Sep 06, 2006 11:03 PM

I have never conducted any formal studies of these treatments I have given in the past. But what I can say is simply this from observations:

I didn't start treating HL's with Panacur until about 2 years into my second HL. This lizard died the following year due to heat stress, but the last year of his life he seemed more active and generally healthier. No other significant conditions about his care had changed in that period. In this first treated animal I had never seen obvious signs of any parasitic infestation, even after several fecal examinations by 10x magnification. I assumed the chances were he was not infested, or that the levels were low. Especially due to the high mealworm and cricket diet he was being given at the time. After Panacur treatment he passed nematodes. No count was taken, but as I recall, it was not a significant amount. Perhaps less than a dozen.

The next 3 HL's were taken in at the same time and not treated initially upon intake. I also made the mistake of not housing them seperately for several weeks as I knew I should have. They showed no casually observable signs of parasitic infestation. The two smaller females became ill, and died within a week of each other. They were not treated prior to their deaths. Necropsy on the second revealed significant presence of nematodes. Many dozen. Necropsy was not conclusive as to cause of death, however, I suspected complications caused by nematodes or gastrointestinal enteritis due to corresponding symptoms in both prior to their deaths. This HL was also the smallest of the three, and there appeared to be areas of injury or discoloration to parts of the bowels and possibly the stomach. I expected that either bacterial or viral enteritis ( inflammation ) or parasites could explain this.

The male was treated immediately for parasites and survived. After initial dose and 2 weeks of observation, no parasites had been passed. Following the second dose, he began to pass nematodes. I place the numbers loosely at a few dozen. He was growing and putting on steady weight after this until hibernation. This HL was treated again prior to hibernation. No significant parasites were observed at that time. However, after emerging from hibernation he weighed in about 10 grams less. Within several weeks after emerging from hibernation, he was treated again. This time the HL passed what I would call a significant and possibly alarming amount of nematodes. Over the course of several weeks he passed nematodes regularly with scat. I place this number easily at 100 or more. Since that treatment he has put the weight back on and has resumed growth. He is alert, active, and healthy in all other manners as I can tell to date. Growing STL by 1.6", STV by .9", and nearly quintupling his weight since hibernation.

Two other wild females taken in for temporary study were also treated recently. Nematodes were passed by both in insignificant numbers. No positive or negative effects were observed. These two HL's also resided in an area which was much less aboundant ( almost devoid ) in harvester ants. Only 3 colonies being found in an area of roughly 30 acres. In captivity they greedily took to harvester ants and everything else offered. In fact, each ( including one juvenile ) eating more harvester ants daily than my solare. On average 100 or more a day.

No other hard data available. However, I maintain anti-parasitic treatment in captive HL's is adviseable due to the numbers of nematodes that can infest them heavily in a short period of time. I have advocated initial treatment upon intake, and twice yearly afterwards. Due to the infrequency of this treatment schedule, I think any risk to HL physiology is negligible compared to possible risks associated with large numbers of parasites.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Cable_Hogue Sep 06, 2006 11:14 PM

Now that is some very interesting information sir. Thanks for posting.
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Phrynosoma.Com

fireside3 Sep 05, 2006 09:37 PM

Colloidial Silver? That's getting out there isn't it Lou?
I have heard much about it for use on people, just from personal testimonials and such, but never got in depth into researching the claims. Don't think I believe everything I have heard it is capapble of curing, you know? Don't think at this point I would give it to my herps either.

I have tried the injection in the mealworm before, but I gave up on it after several mealworms either burst during the attempted injection, or the HL just refused them. The HL would also refuse when I tried to coat the Panacur on the outside of the prey. But that was a different HL, and maybe I should try this method again to see if it will work now.

Another bias I had against the paste is that I never could find it except in ungodly large "horse tube" syringes. They want and arm and a leg for it, and I'll never use that much Panacur...even if I kept 50 HL's for the rest of my life!
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

onthefly Sep 06, 2006 08:29 PM

The tubes are $6.00 or $7.00 on most on line Horse sites

http://search.netcenter.netscape.com/nctr/boomframe.jsp?query=panacur horse&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir?src=websearch&requestId=bd6fbc7038eab2dd&clickedItemRank=12&userQuery=panacur+horse&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horse.com%2Fproducts%2Fsku-BBL18.html&invocationType=-&fromPage=NS8BrowserRoll&ampTest=1&remove_url=http://www.horse.com/products/sku-BBL18.html
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1.1 Bearded Dragon (Drago,???)
1.1 Desert Iguana(Dima, Dianne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Igor)
2.3.5 Collared Lizard (Fred, Wilma, Betty,???)
1.1 Desert Leopard Lizard (Simba, Kimba)
0.1 Hamster (Tofu)
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

onthefly Sep 06, 2006 08:35 PM

http://www.horse.com/products/sku-BBL17.html
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1.1 Bearded Dragon (Drago,???)
1.1 Desert Iguana(Dima, Dianne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Igor)
2.3.5 Collared Lizard (Fred, Wilma, Betty,???)
1.1 Desert Leopard Lizard (Simba, Kimba)
0.1 Hamster (Tofu)
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

fireside3 Sep 06, 2006 10:12 PM

Cool, thanks. That'll work easily enough if it's 100mg/ml concentration or less....Though I wonder if the HL's would like the apple cinnamon flavor!? Maybe we'll do without that.
Stuff I always find at the feedstores is in fist size diameter syringes or in a box set for doing a whole herd of cattle.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

fireside3 Sep 05, 2006 11:53 PM

From an older book I have titled: "Snakes and Lizards & their care and breeding in captivity" by John Coburn ( 1987 )

"Endoparasites....Whilst wild reptiles, more often than not, may play host to several species of helminth without any apparent disability, the stress of captivity may reduce normal resistance and trigger a massive increase in growth, or in the numbers of worms, causing anemia and general malaise which, if untreated, may result in death."

The paragraph goes on to cite fenbendazole among several suitable drug treatments.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

onthefly Sep 06, 2006 11:45 PM

http://search.netcenter.netscape.com/nctr/boomframe.jsp?query=panacur reptile&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir?src=websearch&requestId=9ff2ef11829abe25&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=panacur+reptile&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anapsid.org%2Fresources%2Frxdose.html&invocationType=-&fromPage=NCTRResultsT&ampTest=1&remove_url=http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html
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1.1 Bearded Dragon (Drago,???)
1.1 Desert Iguana(Dima, Dianne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Igor)
2.3.5 Collared Lizard (Fred, Wilma, Betty,???)
1.1 Desert Leopard Lizard (Simba, Kimba)
0.1 Hamster (Tofu)
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

fireside3 Sep 06, 2006 11:50 PM

Yeah she's got a lot of good info. I use Kaplan's stuff all the time.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

onthefly Sep 06, 2006 11:50 PM

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html#parasites
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1.1 Bearded Dragon (Drago,???)
1.1 Desert Iguana(Dima, Dianne)
1.0 Green Iguana (Igor)
2.3.5 Collared Lizard (Fred, Wilma, Betty,???)
1.1 Desert Leopard Lizard (Simba, Kimba)
0.1 Hamster (Tofu)
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

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